5.10d in 1967?

[Aaron]

I recently had a conversation with a gentleman from Nelson BC. He claims to have climbed a two routes in Castlegar BC that today are 5.10b and 5.10d. What's significant is that he climbed these routes back in 1967. Based on his knowledge of the routes, and memory of specific sections I have no doubt that he's telling the truth. My question is this. In Squamish or anywhere else in BC, or Western Canada for that matter, had any routes of that grade gone free by 1967 or earlier?

[Brendan]

Aaron, not sure about the climbs you're referring to, but if it helps, the climb "Fist" .10a in Murrin Park "was the hardest crack at Squamish for almost a decade." FA: Joe Turley 1962

so that means by 1971/72, nothing harder had been climbed. interesting. check it out on page 98 of McLane's guide!

[XXXX]

Greg Lowe climbed 11c in 1967 in mountain boots somewhere in Utah.
Gill climbed the Thimble (V4 highball/12a) in what, 61?

[Steve Townshend]

Ok, i don't remember all the specific's (dates, etc), but a few years back there was an Article in one of the Mags about this very topic.... i'll try to sumerize as i remember (if you REALL want to know, you'll have to look up the article).

MANY YEARS AGO.....

There was a Buddhist Temple somewhere in Asia (it's still there)..... This particular Temple was very near some very nice cliffs. One of the Monks got it in his head that he would climb some of these cliffs (maybe his form of meditation? who knows?)... anyway, he got "obsesses" and started climbing more and more of them... he used a big fat rope tied around his waist and attached a pully to the top of the cliff and had his Friend Monk hold on the the other end for him in case he fell... he apparently did some pretty hard routes (i belive this was in the 1950's or 60's, but could have been earlier).

Anyway, many people went out and watched him climb these routes.... the fact that he climbed them has never been in dispute. he did. the Question was "how hard were they?" SOOOOO...... Mark Le Menestral is a VERY strong French Climber (all you "old School" climbers will know who Mark is... he was FAMOUS for years.... world cup campion and all that) heard about this place and got curious.... he and his friend decided they would go there and climb these routes to see how hard they were.... sort of a "History lesson" or what ever you want to call it....

They got there expecting maybe 5.11 or even 5.12 (the rumors were this Monk was STRONG and the routes were HARD)..... But to their surprize, the hardest line he climbed was 5.13c!!!! no Shoes, no Chalk, fat rope around the waist!!!!!

this monk was for sure the best climber of those days, and also the most unknown.

Look up the article.... maybe i'm forgetting some details.

Have Fun Climbing

[Aaron]

Thanks Steve. I remember reading the article in question. But to bring the issue closer to home. What I think I've discovered is an accent that would have significants for the history of climbing in Western Canada. This guy climbed a routed rated 5.10b 1967. I've climbed this route several times and it's no push over for its grade. You could transplant this route to Squamish, call it 5.10c, and no one would argue. Or you could transplant this route to Skaha call it 5.11b and no one would argue. All joking aside, at the same time he claims to have done another route in the same area that is rated 5.10d. I have to confirm this with him the next time we meet, but based on this guys history I'm thinking that the 10d would have been within his ability level.
5.10d FFA in 1967/68 in little ol' Castlegar. Who would have thunk?

[EnigmaM]

i heard of a climber named MANBOY! now there's a hardman!

[Brendan]

Steve... i realize you may have forgotten some details about the article, but to mistake .13c w/ say maybe .12a is ridiculous. haha. was the route .10+ w/ a HUGE dyno or something, giving it the .13+ grade? i just can't believe that some virgin monk climbed .13c w/ no shoes on!! that' just silly...

maybe Mark Le Menestral became old and weak (he must be, cause i remember him over 10 yrs ago and he was old then), and everything felt like .13c. or maybe he just wanted to feel young and strong again, and decided to give it .13c, all the while chipping (or better known as "prepping" by some members here ) and making it harder? who knows??

[Steve Townshend]

Brendan, i realize i forgot SOME of the details about the article (like if it was the 50's or 60's) but, some things i do remember.... mainly because it was the whole point of the article.... he climbed a 13c WAY WAY WAY before anybody else.... not 12a.

I'm not sure who YOU are Brendan, but i know who Mark Le Menestral is...

Maybe 13c feels hard to you, so this seems like it wouldn't be possible.... but really 13c isn't that hard. Have you ever gone to a Cirque du sole show in Vegas? go check out Mystique; those two strong guys! look at Men's Olympic Gymnasts, look at Bruce Lee.... are you really saying that if people who are THAT strong and train THAT hard tried climbing, you don't think they could do 13c? i know a guy who did 14a his first year climbing (James Litz)....

Just go see Cirque du Sole. Those guys BLOW AWAY any climber for strength! This doesn't seem that unbelievable to me.

[Brendan]

Steven, i'm not even sure who i am sometimes

i realize .13c may be hard to some (i don't climb .13c, nor do i try. i like sliding my fingers into... crack ) but to have climbed it way back then, before modern training methods AND in bare feet just seems a bit far fetched. anyways...

about the Cirque, those guys are nuts. i've never seen the show in Vegas, but i've seen it here(?) and there were some pretty talented people that would kill most 'professional' athletes out there for strength/ weight ratio

[Steve Townshend]

not to beat a dead horse here, but just so you know it's possible.... i've done 13c bare-foot. (Big Blue in the Surf-Bowls in Mexico). and i definately do NOT consider myself to be strong!!! i've know non-climbers who can do 1 arm pull-ups; if 13c back in the day seems "far fetched" to you: common man! Ya gotta be less nieve/ignorant (sorry to use those words, i don't want to be rude, but....), man, why do you think that we weaklings around today are so much stronger/better than people were back then?

my final argument on the subject:

check out the following Videos.... then tell me that if one of these guys tried climbing and got obsessed (like most of us did after we tried it), and just climbed and climbed.... i mean their lives are ALREADY just 100% about meditation and training..... i bet these guys (with no exposure to "modern training methods" or sticky rubber shoes) would climb WAY better than us!

Shaolin Monks (they train their WHOLE lives!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSFgvXuW ... re=related

Breakdancer (check out the LAST thing he does in this video, finger-tip push-ups with feet OFF-THE-GROUND!!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLbsnrAXs7s

Cirque Du Soleil - Mystere - Tressure Island - Las Vegas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFlXxYiG ... re=related

The main girl in this is WAY stronger than me! hahaha, i bet if i brought her climbing, she could do 5.12 her first day!

Oh yeah, that guy James Litz i mensioned before (he did 14a his first year), the day i met him (about 9-10 yrs ago), he had just (earlier THAT DAY) on-sighted all the 5.13's at the Motherlode in Kentucky; i met him at Miguels at the end of the day and he and his friend were messin' around (he'd already had a pretty BIG day.... and he'd only been climbing for just over a year at that point).... he crimpped on the door frame at the restaurant and did 9 one-arm pull-ups (slow and statically, all the way down and all the way up!). it was SICK!, then he pintched the 2"x6" rafters outside the restaurant and did 4 pinch pull-ups.... you'd think he'd be tired!

Point is.... there are MUTANS out there.... we normal people are WEAK...

[Steve Townshend]

PS. what "modern training methods" do we have today that are so good? until last month i haven't even climbed in a gym in 8 yrs! and each summer i still do 5.13+ within a week of climbing (after MONTHS on the couch during winter) and 5.14 every year (eatting junk food and NOT training at all!)

[Dru]

back on topic, Chic Scott's history book might be a good place to start looking for info on the hardest routes in Canada at a particular time. Although it does have a couple glaring omissions.

I seem to recall a story about Les McDonald trying to freeclimb the slabs next to the lower Grand Wall Bolt Ladder (oiff the Flake) in the late 60's and doing some free climbing that, 10 years later, Peter Croft tried to repeat, and couldn't, and said it was 11+ or harder. I'm pretty sure that story is in Chic's book but not in McLane's guide.

Also, when was Yosemite pinnacle left Side climbed? Although freed, and given 5.9 back in the day, i heard that's up to 10b now. There are certainly more "old school" 5.9+s out there that are harder that that by current standards. Dick Culbert is notorious for rating modern 5.8 climbing as 4th class and modern 5.9 as 5.6.

[Aaron]

Also, when was Yosemite pinnacle left Side climbed? Although freed, and given 5.9 back in the day, i heard that's up to 10b now. There are certainly more "old school" 5.9+s out there that are harder that that by current standards. Dick Culbert is notorious for rating modern 5.8 climbing as 4th class and modern 5.9 as 5.6.

Thanks for the beta Dru, I looked at the Yosemite Pinnacle and it was climbed back 1965. I'll had to have a laugh when I read the names of the First accentionists, because it was another Kootenay Hard Man, Hamish Mutch, who freed that one. I'll have to tell Hamish next time I see him that he was the best climber in Canada back in 1965. I'd also bet that he's he's due for a second note of recognition. That of being the oldest climber in Canada to free 5.11a. The man's older than dirt, 67+ and last fall he feed his first 5.11a. We should all be so lucky eh'

[Cloudraker]

That of being the oldest climber in Canada to free 5.11a. The man's older than dirt, 67+ and last fall he feed his first 5.11a. We should all be so lucky eh'

Isn't John Fantini about that age and climbing 5.13?

[Brendan]

Steve, you're hilarious...

moving on... i have been able to do a (more than one at a time) one finger pull up from a shitty 1digit deep mono pocket! does that make me crazy? NO.