Lowering off chains

[BK]

Just to be completely clear, I hold no grudges against sporto's or peope who are flumoxed by something as complex as threading a rope through chains. I understand and fully empathize with drug abuse. Especially while climbing.

[Squamishmonkey]

So help me out.... sometimes its ok to walk down and sometimes its ok to rap and sometimes its ok to lower? but it depends on the situation, equipment, location etc

and I need to apply my own judgement and make decisions for myself that if I get wrong I could die?

Think I'll go bouldering.

[slinky]

For all kinds of reasons, it may be inappropriate to lower off trad routes, even at relatively user-friendly venues like the Bluffs

Really how come ? I lower of directly of chains on trad routes all the time, its great! Even better when someone has left leaver biners.

[BK]

"

I need to apply my own judgement and make decisions for myself that if I get wrong I could die?

Sorry, we're not giving away any trade secrets here bub. Although i hear there is a course you can take for that at CWMS!

[rolfr]

Lowering off chains is just part of the problem, top roping off fixed anchour is the worst culprit !
I 've spent thousands of dollars establishing new safe routes, there isn't a magic tooth fairy that replaces worn out anchours, bring a quick link or leaver biner as part of your rack and be part of the solution instead of arguing if it's OK or not to f**k up hard work other people created for your benefit.
There are a handful of dedicated people at every destination that selflessly make climbing a safe experience for the masses, yet most climbers are too cheap to support local access societies and rebolting organizations.
Be part of the solution.

[pbeckham]

When I equip anchors for others (and my) convenience, I expect people to rap, lower, top rope, simul rap, maybe do some aerial performance and eventually wear out my hardware.
I may or may not ever replace it.

Let's cut to the chase and land on a rigid dogma that applies to every situation.
A universal cookie cutter you can take to any crag thereby freeing the masses from critical or rational thinking.
That's the whole point isn't it?

[c-plus]

On the other hand, the incidence of accidents occurring because of confusion over rap vs lowering decisions is meaningfully high. The classic situation being that the belayer stops belaying because they expect their leader to rappel, then the leader takes a ground-fall when they try to lower.

I get what you're saying, but I do this handy trick when I go clean a route. Ahem... wait for it... before I start climbing the route, I say to the belayer, "I'll just rap when I"m done". Presto! 15 years later I've never had a belayer drop me. Works for noobs and old farts alike.

Anyways, all kidding aside, I almost always rap routes instead of lowering. Maybe it's a trad climber thing....

[pbeckham]

[quote]Anyways, all kidding aside, I almost always rap routes instead of lowering. Maybe it's a trad climber thing....[/quote]

Apropos of this thread's context, just what is "trad climbing"?
Paul Preuss on sight soloing in the Dolomites?
Vibram soles, hemp rope and soft iron pins?
Kroenhoffers, Goldline and chrome moly?
EB's, swamis and hexes?

In my books, plugging in high tech widgets and clipping fixed stainless hardware is anything but traditional and describing it as such is ill informed, elitist or delusional.

[pbeckham]

Deleted reprint.

[J Mace]

Its just a general rule of thumb BB, something experienced well travelled climbers do, just like knowing how to get off a climb when you or your partner drop the rap device...basic stuff. Good question OP.

[maurop]

what's that saying? Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for a lifetime? I think that's the one. Maybe it's worth spending some time going over rappelling with your friend. It's a valuable skill at any rate. I'm not sure about establish etiquette for getting down routes in squamish, but I tend to rap off routes.

Interesting post by pbeckham....

[tobyfk]

On the other hand, the incidence of accidents occurring because of confusion over rap vs lowering decisions is meaningfully high. The classic situation being that the belayer stops belaying because they expect their leader to rappel, then the leader takes a ground-fall when they try to lower.

I get what you're saying, but I do this handy trick when I go clean a route. Ahem... wait for it... before I start climbing the route, I say to the belayer, "I'll just rap when I"m done". Presto! 15 years later I've never had a belayer drop me. Works for noobs and old farts alike.

Well this of course puts you squarely in the group most likely to have an accident as 1. you are complacent and have an excessive faith in communication and 2. you have created an expectation with your partner(s) that you "always" rap so they are likely to start taking you off-belay without being prompted. You should be careful on the occasions when you have to lower.

[BK]

This thread is starting to get rather hilarious!

I'll state right now if i ever catch somebody taking me off belay on an assumption there will be holy hell to pay but hey, I'm old fashioned. However, in the interest of trying desprately to stay on topic, it sounds like these days a belayer cannot be trusted (???) so .... first of all climb like your soloing then obviously you'd be an idiot to lower because the guy / girl probably dropped the rope ten minutes ago to go update his /her facebook feed and/ or blog.

Solution: rap

[Squamishmonkey]

The only time you should never rap is if the anchor is on an Alpine BK route. In some countries this game is called Russian roulette and ice is needed in your veins.

and I bet BK has been taken off belay for taking partners into holy hell, old fashioned alpine sketch routes.
1) not putting any gear in and leading on a death chose pile.....your off belay
2) Switching to simul-climbing...your off
3) Partner has frozen to death on some god awful frozen belay ledge...your off.
4) I'm taking this thread off topic....your off belay