New Routes Right of Zoe, Murrin Park.

[timelessbeing]

The cost of buying a trad rack should never be a consideration when placing bolts. That is ridiculous.

It sounds like you want to be part of an exclusive group, which is elitist, and ridiculous.

You think you are pretty high and mighty with your $200 rack. By the way, please show me where I can get a Chief-ready rack for so little. Let me remind you, fellow trad climber, that you are climbing cleaned, polished, established routes, on granite, with likely bolted anchors, guide books and approach trails. You are not much better than a gym climber. If you have something to prove, go do some alpine or glacier ascents. Then you can preach about how privileged sport climbing is.

Thank you for mentioning Chek, which is a case in point. By your rules, it wouldn't exist.

Should be encourage building lifts and gondolas into the backcountry to 'support' those who can afford to buy skis, boots, etc. but not AT skis and boots?

Should we encourage two lane highways leading right to the base, parking lots, approach trails, and jiffy johns. Should we encourage ski lifts into glaciers for those who can't afford helicopters? I'm not sure what kind of world you live in, but it certainly doesn't include a growing population.

Please see Supertopo and rc.com for about 80 million conversations explaining why you're wrong.

80 mill huh... Sorry, but I'm not a forum gladiator. Can you please explain it here in your own words?

How wonderfully selfish and short-sighted of you.

I recommend you go hop on a classic single-pitch trad lead like High Mountain Woody and come back here to tell us about your experience.

How wonderfully vague of you. But thanks I think I will take your suggestion and go climb it again.

Oddly, no one notices those bolts unless they are pointed out to them.

Now that's selfish.

This has been the ethic in Squamish for decades and it should remain.

Seriously? History has shown me that if anything remains the same, it's that things change. You either adapt or go extinct.

There is a distinct antisocial undertone in your writing. I simply came here to share my views (and I know I'm not alone) and rather than explaining your position and adding to everyone's understanding, you managed to come across as a complete douche. Good luck to you.

Happy climbing everyone.

[jipstyle]

The cost of buying a trad rack should never be a consideration when placing bolts. That is ridiculous.

It sounds like you want to be part of an exclusive group, which is elitist, and ridiculous.

You think you are pretty high and mighty with your $200 rack.

Starting a response with an ad hominem attack is hardly the way to continue this conversation. But no, I don't consider myself high and mighty ... even with my $200 rack.

By the way, please show me where I can get a Chief-ready rack for so little.

When added to a sport rack, you can climb most anything on the Chief with a $200 in stoppers of various sizes.

Let me remind you, fellow trad climber, that you are climbing cleaned, polished, established routes, on granite, with likely bolted anchors, guide books and approach trails. You are not much better than a gym climber. If you have something to prove, go do some alpine or glacier ascents.

You're making a lot of (incorrect) assumptions about what and how I climb ... which is funny, because you do so in order to say:

Then you can preach about how privileged sport climbing is.

... which is not something I said nor implied. I was countering your argument that trad climbing is somehow privileged because of the cost of the rack .. and I did so by pointing out that a sport climber's gear is also quite expensive.

Thank you for mentioning Chek, which is a case in point. By your rules, it wouldn't exist.

I have yet to climb a route at Chek that is safe to climb without the existing bolts. Please tell which I should try on gear only.

Should be encourage building lifts and gondolas into the backcountry to 'support' those who can afford to buy skis, boots, etc. but not AT skis and boots?

Should we encourage two lane highways leading right to the base, parking lots, approach trails, and jiffy johns. Should we encourage ski lifts into glaciers for those who can't afford helicopters? I'm not sure what kind of world you live in, but it certainly doesn't include a growing population. [/quote]

That is a nice strawman but it doesn't fit the conversation.

You argued that trad climbing is out of most people's reach because of the cost of the gear .. and that, therefore, the climbs should be bolted for them.

The analogy that I presented is that AT skiing is out of most people's reach because of the cost of the gear ... and therefore, we should build lifts to accomodate those people who can afford $1000 in ski gear but not $1500.

Do you understand my point?

Please see Supertopo and rc.com for about 80 million conversations explaining why you're wrong.

80 mill huh... Sorry, but I'm not a forum gladiator. Can you please explain it here in your own words? [/quote]

Sure: it is not just your rock. When you bolt a climb that is naturally protectable, you ruin the experience for others.

There is a distinct antisocial undertone in your writing. I simply came here to share my views (and I know I'm not alone) and rather than explaining your position and adding to everyone's understanding, you managed to come across as a complete douche. Good luck to you.

Yes, it upsets me when people like you cruise into town and try to change decades of history and rewrite our ethics.

You provided these arguments:
a) trad climbing is too expensive!
b) bolts are ugly.

I explained my position clearly and you decided to attack .. and yet I'm the antisocial one.

Interesting.

[timelessbeing]

You provided these arguments:
a) trad climbing is too expensive!
b) bolts are ugly.

You are oversimplifying.

You argued that trad climbing is out of most people's reach because of the cost of the gear .. and that, therefore, the climbs should be bolted for them.

Oversimplified. I said applying your rule everywhere is discriminatory to some. Climbing with only stoppers ... not possible.

When you bolt a climb that is naturally protectable, you ruin the experience for others.

How? This seems to be the crux of your argument, but you're not very articulate about it.

I explained my position clearly and you decided to attack .. and yet I'm the antisocial one.

I'm afraid you forfeited your right to claim ad hominem attacks. I would argue that you were the opposite of clear. What did you expect with such an abrasive response to my respectful post??

it upsets me when people like you cruise into town and try to change decades of history and rewrite our ethics.

I'm not changing anything, just sharing opinion, just like you, and just like smallman invited me to do. No reason to get upset.

[jipstyle]

You argued that trad climbing is out of most people's reach because of the cost of the gear .. and that, therefore, the climbs should be bolted for them.

Oversimplified. I said applying your rule everywhere is discriminatory to some.

You also said that Chek is an example of this ... so please do tell what climbs at Chek are climbable without bolts?

We are blessed with an abundance of rock. Bouldering, sport, trad .. we've got it all. Why would we destroy trad routes in order to put up more sport climbs? There are plenty of places to climb on bolts that are not cleanly protectable and that are not slabs .. so why would we also bolt cracks?

This is not discrimination ... it is sharing. Providing equal access to scarce resources is the opposite of discrimination. Bolting a crack destroys that resource.

Climbing with only stoppers ... not possible.

Really?! Wow. I am the unpossible climber!! So were decades of climbers before me. Neat.

When you bolt a climb that is naturally protectable, you ruin the experience for others.

How? This seems to be the crux of your argument, but you're not very articulate about it.

This is a debate that has been rehashed for decades and I did not think that it needed to be repeated yet again.

Climbing on gear adds a dimension to the sport that climbing on bolts lacks. There is a commitment to the placements that you've made and a commitment to climb to the next stance where you can find a good placement that sport climbing lacks. When you bolt a crack, that commitment disappears because the leaders always knows that they can clip a bolt. Even if they don't, the existence of the bolt detracts from the climb.

Even if you disagree, understand that this argument is used and understood by many trad climbers. You may climb and feel differently .. but that doesn't change what impacts our climbing.

I explained my position clearly and you decided to attack .. and yet I'm the antisocial one.

I'm afraid you forfeited your right to claim ad hominem attacks. I would argue that you were the opposite of clear. What did you expect with such an abrasive response to my respectful post??

I'd expect you to grow thicker skin. I attacked what you wrote; you invented a neat little story. I attacked your arguments; you attacked me. That is the definition of ad hominem, by the way: "Attacking an opponent's motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain."

[smallman]

Wow, never would I have thought that the route names we came up with for these two routes would be so ironic.

[jipstyle]

Wow, never would I have thought that the route names we came up with for these two routes would be so ironic.

Bad things happen when the rock is wet.

[timelessbeing]

To call me selfish wasn't an attack on my character? ... very well I can play that game too. I simply meant that your position was self-important. Look, this is going nowhere. I found your response snarky. It's negative, it doesn't help anybody, and thick skin or not, it shuts down discussion. Deal with it (though you seem to enjoy it and I'm sure you will continue)

I can't think of any such routes at Chek right now. Truth is, I haven't been there in some time and don't recall very well. I just assumed it was a sport area. Sue me.

Climbing with only stoppers ... not possible.

OK wrong word usage. It's not practical. I can't imagine fumbling with stoppers in a cruxy spot. Especially if there crack doesn't close up neatly. It changes things a lot.

When you bolt a crack, that commitment disappears because the leaders always knows that they can clip a bolt.

I suppose that's a valid point. Usually if I find a climb isn't intimidating enough, I just go to something harder. Do you find that there's a shortage of committing trad routes?

[jipstyle]

To call me selfish wasn't an attack on my character?

I didn't call you selfish ... I called your position selfish. Since this isn't the first time that you've been an a$% in responding to me, I didn't feel the need to put on the kiddie gloves. Whatever. Let's move on.

I can't think of any such routes at Chek right now. Truth is, I haven't been there in some time and don't recall very well. I just assumed it was a sport area. Sue me.

It is a sport area. That is my point. You said "thank you for mentioning Chek, which is a case in point. By your rules, it wouldn't exist." The rule I follow is 'if it can be traditionally protected, don't bolt it.' I want you to explain how Chek would not exist because of this rule.

Climbing with only stoppers ... not possible.

OK wrong word usage. It's not practical. I can't imagine fumbling with stoppers in a cruxy spot. Especially if there crack doesn't close up neatly. It changes things a lot.

It sure does ... but people climbed (a lot) become the invention of the SLCD. I also like to slap a cam in when I'm cruxing but ... honestly ... you don't NEED them. I learned to lead without them and I'm sure that many others have as well.

My point remains: the cost of a rack is not a basis for determining whether to place a bolt and I hope it never becomes one.

When you bolt a crack, that commitment disappears because the leaders always knows that they can clip a bolt.

I suppose that's a valid point. Usually if I find a climb isn't intimidating enough, I just go to something harder.

Great. So what do you do when all of the easy routes are bolted? How do you develop that lead head that you need to run it out until you find a good placement?

Another question: why should a 5.8 climber be denied a spicy lead? Isn't it selfish to demand that a climber climb harder in order to climb something committing?

Granted, easier climbs tend to be easier to protect .. so doesn't that make the occasional spicy section in an easy climb that much more valuable due to its scarcity?

Do you find that there's a shortage of committing trad routes?

Not yet ... which is why I also find it necessary to express my opinion.

Do you find that there is a shortage of sport routes?

[timelessbeing]

I want you to explain how Chek would not exist because of this rule.

As I said, I just assumed it was a pro-bolt zone. I did not check each climb for bolt worthiness because it's not something I spend time doing, so I can't answer your question. I retract my statement.

My point remains: the cost of a rack is not a basis for determining whether to place a bolt and I hope it never becomes one.

I won't say it's a basis, but rather a side effect.

So what do you do when all of the easy routes are bolted? How do you develop that lead head that you need to run it out until you find a good placement?

I just never found it to be an issue. If there was bolts, great, if not, man up. No biggy. I guess I just don't hold it as close to heart as you. As long as there are SOME trad routes available. I do find merit in what you say ... but I'm still not convinced that your rule should be followed religiously.

Do you find that there is a shortage of sport routes?

Absolutely without a doubt. And not just sport. Squamish is bursting at the seams.

[Paul Greenwood]

easy guys, same team...

[Optimally-Primed]

thumbs down on this online bolt slugfest.
Meet up at the Brew Pub over a few drinks to continue...

[timelessbeing]

You're a bit late. I'm done.

[gnarnaphobe]

Sorry I'm late, I was at the candy store, getting some snacks.


..carry on..

[joeljacques1]

That argument was really lame. bolting cracks? are you crazy? Ive never read anything so ridiculous. Royal Robbins and other pioneers created ethics that make the sport what it is. If you aren't interested in the history or don't care you are not really a climber. Oh, and by the way the pioneers of the sport climbed 2000' routes of up to 5.9 with hiking boots, stoppers and hemp ropes. If you want to be a trad climber or a climber at all buy some nuts and go get some air under your feet.

[sandBag]

I really try not to get involved in this kind if debate, but will say this.

Murin has always been a mixed bag when it comes to establishing routes, sport, trad or mixed. A route was always done in the style of the developer. If you sport climbed you'd most likely put in bolts, etc.

Whats most important is to respect the climber who has spent time , money and effort giving all of us more rock to climb. If it's a face climb with short sections that can be protected with gear, it should always be the developers choice what to do with respect to the area as a whole (if the area was a trad climbing area, i'd personally wouldn't place a bolt). If you are a trad climber, don't bolt it, if it is a sport climber, bolt it.

It's so tiresome listening to people rant about what style is more pure. Do you really think a climbing pioneer thinks only about style. No I'd bet they thought, how am i going to get to the top of a climb and what tools do I have available to do it?

There's no room in climbing for arrogance, but there is room to respect and support a diverse community of climbers; and it starts by appreciating the hard work and commitment of the climbers establishing new routes.

If you can't wrap your head around that go somewhere else to climb!