Here we go again (Squamish Gondola proposal)

[Joyanne]

I am an experienced hiker (but new climber). I have hiked the chief several times. I have heard people say "if you can't hike the chief, you don't deserve the view". I am a nurse by trade. I work with handicapped/disabled/elderly people every day.

I think it would be lovely for people to be able to see that magnificent view. I have one pt. in particular. she is 53 and has end stage MS. she was an avid hiker/climber before her diagnosis. She talks often of how much she misses the views. She expressed to me on one occasion how she would love to see the view fromt he Chief one more time before she passes. Seeing it on TV is NOT the same. How sad that snob factor may prevent her from being able to experience the view from the 2nd summit one more time.

[BK]

avit, to be short, there's a wide range of policy that the liberals have enacted which i take issue with (bill 30, BC rail sale, BC hydro emasculation, lying about HST, Fish farm corruption, etc) but as far as the issues of BC Parks policy go I strongly suspect that christie clark was just slyly throwing us a few political crumbs by eliminating parking fees - if she really wanted to support our access to parks she would rebuild funding to an adequate level. she's a campbell insider and fraser institute acolyte like all the rest of them as far as i can tell.

As far as the gondola goes i agree with your assessment of cautious support and also agree with the sentiment expressed by Joy anne which i think was more successful at articulation than mine. I think there's 2 key factors to keep in mind here. one, the crowds are coming no matter what, and its all going to boil down to how we all spread out in some reasonable fashion to not overwhelm the assets we got (in other words, we need more assets). If the huge population of california can do it (with the right leadership and support of government) than i don't see why we can't do it as well.

second, outdoor recreation should be encouraged throughout all our society for multiple reasons and not just hoarded for those of us who are somehow more deserving or have the stomach for a good bushwack. If not, our province will remain as nothing but a resource base inaccessable to all but corporate interests and those with the bucks for helicopters and lodges - or strong legs and thick skulls. As far as impact and imposition on other user groups goes, this proposal seems fairly low key, with lots of potential for increasing our access to the upper shannon creek basin.

[NateDoggOG]

second, outdoor recreation should be encouraged throughout all our society for multiple reasons and not just hoarded for those of us who are somehow more deserving or have the stomach for a good bushwack.

I wouldn't say we are more deserving per se, but I think that the view and all that is much more rewarding if you have to work for it. If everyone can just pay their five bucks or whatever to get up to the top, everything that we strive for is just going to be taken for granted. In this world, unfortunately unless you have a bunch of money, work is a necessary evil.
If the average person wants to ski backcountry in the winter, they're gonna expect to hike for upwards of two hours and it's gonna suck, but they're going to be rewarded with one of the sickest powder lines ever.
If they could just pay the money for a helicopter, then I doubt they would be as grateful on the ride down.
One of the reasons I love our sport is its lack of commercialization.... The number of people who climb indoors don't realize that for the same price, they can have gas to the crag, food to boot, and climb the real thing for free.
I feel like the more access there is, the more likely it is that someone with money will realize they're sitting on a goldmine, and next thing we know, we're being told we have to pay to climb the Grand Wall.
That'll be the day.....

[avit]

I wouldn't say we are more deserving per se, but I think that the view and all that is much more rewarding if you have to work for it.

Well, I certainly think it's rewarding too, but who are we to judge someone's else's standard... for some people rewarding is just getting out of bed.

Yes, the crowds are growing. Yes, we should strive to provide access to everyone. But I think we should try to be selective and wise about it. You can't please everyone, especially if it's at the expense of a unique resource like the Chief.

I felt strongly that the Chief gondola was a bad idea, and I still do.

Done right, I think this alternate proposal could be positive for the community and for guests. It doesn't step on any groups' toes, in fact it could be a benefit for hikers/climbers as alpine access, I don't think the environmental questions should be a major problem, a gondola leaves a relatively small footprint (much less so than the roads etc. that were planned for GAS), and it would help ease the traffic around the Chief & Shannon Falls, as well as providing a different kind of experience for people without the time, ability, or inclination to make the hike (who are we to judge).

[BK]

nate, i get your drift but i think the far greater risk these days is that increasing segments of our society are being isolated from outdoor/wilderness recreation, often due to decreased access. Forest service roads which were once an integral access route maintained for the public are now managed only for resource extraction and deactivated immediately after. BC parks underfunding results in diminished access despite increased population. If people stop going they stop caring.

furthermore, no matter how much we appreciate hammering up on our own steam for untracked powder, many more prefer the lift. Even if we want to, imposing our values on others is unlikely to produce the results we want anyway. No matter how we prefer it there's always going to be many, many people who prefer their "wilderness experience' in somewhat more sanitized terms for various reasons. We can have fun snubbing our noses at them (I do it al the time) but the reality is if we want to protect our outdoor values we need more than just us for the political power to protect it.

even the bloody sledders are people too, as much as i hate to admit it. we just gotta figure out how to share and manage like civilized and equitable people and have a reasonable tolerance and respect for varying values. Last i checked there's still a fair chunk of terrain out there. Hell, just cross the river from downtown and you'll run into grizzlies and no shortage of bushwacking if thats what you want.

As for "paying for it" well, we're always paying for it somehow, it all boils down to how much and how onerous the price. If the middle class is out priced from something as basic and traditional as access to the woods, there something seriously wrong with our social / political priorities.

[Joyanne]

I'm not really sure how the politics and details are going to pan out. I don't live in squamish, I just visit often. . I just feel that someone like my pt..who spend her entire young life advocating the sport, practicing it, and even now, when she can no longer participate in it..supports and donates to causes climbing related...deserves to have access. Will we get a lot of fat american tourists? Sure..but it's not really our place to judge who deserves to enjoy the beauty and who does not correct?

[NateDoggOG]

Yeah, I guess I'm fairly biased around the whole deal...... I am by no means a super proactive person, but I still have a hard time wrapping my head around the whole concept of, 'why walk when we can take the lift/heli/sled/sedan chair up'?
I'm always stoked to top out on first peak to see the large assortment of people who made the trek up. Plenty of them spend a good chunk of the day up there (but I'm guessing that a lot of that is them procrastinating on the descent )
I know the proposal isn't for the Chief this time, but (assuming again here) I'm guessing that those who can't be bothered to hike up the Chief aren't going to be overly anxious about hiking around the top of Habrich either. Then it's just a matter of take the lift up, grab a coffee, take a look around, then lift back down. There's no reason to appreciate it once you're up there.

Also, I expect there will be the inevitable question, 'why would you climb/hike up when there is a perfectly good gondola'?

[Joyanne]

Haha..I don't think there will be LESS hikers or climbers at ALL if the gondola goes up! I hike the chief because I love to hike, not just because I want a pretty view. I suspect many hikers/climbers are like this. We are active people who hike and climb for sport and enjoyment. It's not just a necessary evil to summit and have a view for most of us. At least it's not for me!

[BK]

you know i am essentially of the same mind as you, earn your turns etc. I spent many years living and working up at the ski hill and to this day am a bit perplexed as to why anyone would be satisfied with such an experience. But the point is is that they are. many people really are perfectly satisfied with enjoying their wilderness from a deck chair or maybe what to them is an outrageously enlightening and adventurous walk around an interpretive trail. The important thing is that their minds are blown by the same views we see, and maybe they'll do it again but chose instead to walk up to garibaldi lake and better yet, remember that experience when they vote and recall the sad state of affairs of BC Parks trails... or if that opportunity never existed in the first place maybe they'll just sip their drinks in a sport bar, eat dorritos, and vote liberal/conservative/republican because making money and burning gas and who cares about wild salmon or global warming is the only thing that spins around in their tiny little heads.

I know its a bit of a stretch linking salmon to gondolas but i think there's something to it

[c-plus]

I'm with BK on this one. In an age where people are disconnecting themselves from the natural world more and more and living in concrete jungles and the depths of the internet (whoops, is that what I'm doing here? ), anything that gets people closer to nature is probably a good thing. I doubt they'll join greenpeace after but hopefully a seed is planted.

I wonder about the parallels with the Grouse Grind. I assume that for many people it's their first (and only?) outdoor experience and doubt that it would happen without the cafe up top to rest at and the gondola ride back down. Is it contrived? Yeah. But maybe a stepping stone to greater things? One hopes. Perhaps this foreshadows what could happen in Squamish.

[NateDoggOG]

We can create another Whistler bubble!

I'll shut up now.

[al pine]

I too am in agreement with BK. Access in BC is anemic compared to Colorado, the Sierras, etc. And better access (to a point) is a good thing for us climbers and tourists (more folk to appreciate what we have got).

Actually, IMHO the gondola doesn't go high enough to be of any real use for climbers/skiers/mountaineers. No doubt the cost model precludes the developers from going higher as the upper terminal is located on a decommissioned road, but it really does need to go higher for any real access value to our group.

[Dru]

Less access = more wilderness

I mean, in most of BC you have to fight to get there, or pay heli fees but the benefit when you do is that it's free and unregulated. There just aren't enough people on Crown land in most of the province to make permits and so on cost-effective. If you sh*t in the woods it will decay long before another party comes along and steps in it.

Compare that to the US where in many areas you need your $50 backcountry permit plus $25 parking permit and then you have to carry your poo around with you in a bag. The only way they can maintain a semblance of wilderness is through a whole series of access management laws and regulations.

I'll take the BC Crown land wilderness over the US, or the Canadian national parks, managed version any day of the week.

[J Mace]

Ya pretty surprised to hear folks wanting to be more like America, no thanks!

Go to Colorado and Cali if you like that crap, hell its a day drive away.

[Anders Ourom]

I agree with all the above - which is to say, that more information and discussion is needed, perhaps quite a lot more. Relating to a few comments:
- Climbers (the Access Society) led the opposition to the last proposed gondola, in I think 2004. We won. Particularly if we're united, or nearly so, we can make a real difference.
- There is a need for increased low-impact frontcountry and backcountry recreation possibilities in the entire Squamish-Whistler area. Trails, basic campgrounds, some road access, etc.
- Whatever the developer may say, they're investing in the thing only to make money. Access for the disabled, from their perspective, is part of the marketing, and no more. They won't make any money on it, particularly as there are already accessible facilities at Grouse and Whistler, at least.
- The current proposal would not provide access to the second summit of the Chief, or anywhere on the Chief, as it would go to a knoll in the upper Shannon Creek basin. Hopefully the developers and the government got the message last time, that the Chief is off limits.
- I wonder if the proponents have considered something on Goat Ridge, which would be higher, and maybe a better sell? It would also spread things out, given that the Shannon-Chief area is already rather crowded with things.

It's still unclear exactly what is being proposed, and whether it's the thin edge of a wedge in terms of what might follow. A "concept plan" rarely corresponds to what happens.

My main concern continues to be what happens if the thing goes into receivership or bankruptcy, either during or after construction. Who picks up the pieces, and cleans up the mess?