Spring Cleaning

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BK
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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by BK » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:02 am

Elaborate!

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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by jipstyle » Wed May 11, 2011 10:50 am

BlahMatt wrote:
cmoorhead wrote:No bolts on clean corner please!
Seconded!
Thirded! (?!)

aitch
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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by aitch » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:01 pm

Hey Bruce
There's good news and bad news.
The good news is that I really appreciate that you removed all those scraggly 'trees' growing out of the left side of the pinnacle. They were not there in 1965, and look terrible in the photo. They must have been awkward to climb around in recent years, and they really spoiled the nice clean sword-like appearance of the pinnacle. So thanks for doing that.
The bad news is that Glenn and I [and others] have discussed the protection bolt which you placed, and have decided that it is not needed. I am very surprised that you did not contact either of us prior to placing it, as you could have done so quite easily. Also, up thread you discuss contacting some long-lost relative of Dick Willmott about placing a bolt on Clean Corner, but you did not bother to contact us. Something does not add up here. You claim that anyone who does not like this unfortunate bolt can chop it. Glenn and I both want it chopped, but have no intention of doing so personally. YOU placed it, so either YOU or one of your friends should chop it. Simple enough. Please post up on this thread when this has been done.
You also mention that you added a bolted station, [hmmmmm] and are worried about a factor 2 fall. No problem here as YPLS is an "old school" route, and the rule for these is "the leader never falls". Problem solved. Also, protection without the bolt should not be a problem. The biggest piece which we carried was a 1" soft steel ring angle, so today's climbers with a full set of nuts and cams up to #5 will have no problem getting in lots of gear.
Another old school route is Cemetery Gates in Llanberris, North Wales. The 1961 guidebook has this to say about it, "Pitons are nowhere necessary, and leaders who think otherwise should turn their attention elsewhere." Substitute bolts for pitons and you have the situation on YPLS.
Thanks in advance for removing the offending bolt.
Regards, Hamish Mutch.

BK
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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by BK » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:47 pm

sure, no problem. Let me explain myself. there i was hanging on a rope, killing trees. I looked at the problem resulting and thought that a bolt would be prudent. I wondered about the ethical dilemma for a while but in the end i decided that as i was there, drill in hand i'd fire one in and if ever the need arose later i would remove it. Unorthodox perhaps but it made sense at the time. I always over drill so removal and hole filling is simpler than lugging a bloody drill back up there. perhaps I should have contacted you directly but i figured my message would get to you eventually.


As for clean corner, I havn't been there in a while so if somebody bolted it don't look at me! I do recall some sketchy stump that is fully the crux 20 or so uninterupted feet above the belay so if you ask me, if that is indeed the case a bolt to replace the now useless stump sounds good. Same story up on the Tantalus headwall. Anyway, thats my opinion. I'm fully in favor of consensus so if most everyone else thinks otherwise fine with me. I'd love to hear the rationale however.

As for left side of YOS pinnacle that thing is still a streak of mud so i won't be up there for a while but when i do i'll bring my hammer, punch and hole putty to restore it. No offense meant on my part.

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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by another matt » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:51 am

I don't usually do not voice an opinion on these matters but lately I feel I might. First off, to all those you who contribute to the development of new routes and the maintenance of old ones, thank you for your time, money and efforts. This sport has exploded in popularity and we need people to continue to put in the hours to help match the number of climbs to crowds. That being said, with the growing numbers of new climbers has come a change in attitude, especially around the acceptance of risk. I know I'm not the first person to bring this up, but it concerns me when I hear comments like "we need to tweak a few of these old climbs", and considerations of a bolt on clean corner. Let's not lose respect for these 'old climbs' and let's definitely not change history. I hope climbs can be left as they were developed, in the nature and style of those who developed them. These climbs may not be for everyone, you may not like or agree with the amount of risk or the fall factor potential, but please do not take away that history or the experience for those who still seek that adventure. As I said, I really do appreciate the efforts of all those who give there time, and I am reluctant to comment when someone with the best of intentions contributes to the community, but I do comment so that all voices are heard.

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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by Tricouni » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:39 pm

I agree with the comments by Hamish regarding YPLS. Remove the bolt. Please don't add any bolts on Clean Corner.

In 1967 I wrote:
A few comments on bolts seem to be called for... Most Vancouver climbers strongly dislike bolts and will go to great lengths to avoid placing them. All climbers are asked to restrain themselves from placing bolts on established routes and to use discretion when bolting on new routes. The neglect of this custom has resulted in the over-bolting of several otherwise excellent reoutes. All climbs described in this guide are adequately bolted. The climber who feels that he must place a bolt on an established route is definitely climbing beyond his ability.
Although I was unaware of the comment on Cemetery Gates (quoted by Hamish), my last sentence is similar in sentiment.

Today I'd modify my comments to allow for new bolts on climbs that are now done free: a good example seems to be the old aid route Forked Flume, now rvamped, cleaned and bolt-protected into Skywalker (anybody care to haul me up it ?? - it sounds great).

But I don't certainly don't condone bolts on Banana Peel (on the first ascent, by a young and bold Dan Tate, only a single piton was placed), on Granville Street, Clean Corner, or YPLS.

Glenn Woodsworth

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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by J Mace » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:24 pm

Tree for a bolt seems fair to me

Tricouni
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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by Tricouni » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:36 pm

Tree for a bolt seems fair to me
I don't object to bolts at belays when the natural stuff has rotted out and there's no gear alternative.

aitch
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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by aitch » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:28 pm

Bruce
Thanks for your prompt and positive response.
What is the explanation for the 'streak of mud' which you refer to?

Glenn
Great writing back in 1967.

J Mace
"Tree for a bolt seems fair to me". Is that a riddle?
Cheers, HM.

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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by Optimally-Primed » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:30 pm

Today I'd modify my comments to allow for new bolts on climbs that are now done free: a good example seems to be the old aid route Forked Flume, now rvamped, cleaned and bolt-protected into Skywalker
I'm glad to hear that seasoned Squamish climbers approve of the work I did, and how I did it.

Just thought I'd chime in to clarify exactly what took place on Forked Flume.
- I had permission from Dick Culbert to add bolts as I saw fit.
- I did add bolted belays where there had previously been trees, heather, and dirt.
- I added just one protection bolt to the two Forked Flume pitches. The bolt is at a spot where there had been significant vegetation nearby and was now amidst a new run-out. A fixed piton had resided on this pitch (at a different location). I removed the piton and gave it to Dick's son for nostalgic purposes.
- Pitch 1 has 2 protection bolts; pitch 5 has 4. Neither of these pitches were on the original Forked Flume route.
(anybody care to haul me up it ?? - it sounds great).
It would be an honour!

BK
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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by BK » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:13 am

Hamish, the mud comment refers to the persistent wetness that ought to have dried up by now, in a normal year. I waited forever for dry conditions to give it the final buff but in the end the best i could do is squeegee off the bulk of the shmoo with a deck broom and hope some more rain washes the rest off. sounds yummy huh?

Another Matt, I appreciate both your effort to explain your opinion and your concern for maintaining historical context of our routes and would like to add that I am of the same mind. If anyone is interpreting my words otherwise i'd like to say that too much is being read into it. History is a big deal to me and honoring our pioneers should be a value we maintain. Iconic routes in particular should be preserved in their original state as much as possible. Snake and Merci Me are good examples of how to this day few can wrestle with them without considering the historical context of the first ascent.

I would caution against entrenching such value in dogma however. Getting back to Clean Corner and Tantalus Wall, I'd like to state that both routes are iconic to our history and preserving the representative nature of the climbing should be high on the list. I'd like to point out that historically it appears that a deciduous tree existed at the base of the crack for many years, which offered slung protection and something to monkey up. This has since died and is effectively no more. In other words, the current state of unprotected hard groveling 20 feet above the belay has no historical validity.

Even if it did, is such a situation justified? On Merci Me if you blow it before the first clip you'll mangle your legs on the ledge but you won't factor 2 onto the belay, and the climbing is positive edges not barndoor groveling up some chossy rounded wide thing. Ugly, ledge bouncing, high force falls twenty feet off the belay are nothing to scoff at and I suggest that a reason to justify it had better be a bloody good one. In both cases I suspect a very few might grumble at the sight of a little bit of stainless steel but they'll sure as hell clip it and then quickly forget all about it as they deal with the remaining 40 odd meters of full on old school climbing where they can think about the historical context to their hearts content.

I'd like to point out that squamish has a history of retro bolting on iconic routes already, largely for significant safety concerns. El Indio, Horrors of Ivan, and a handful of Pet Wall routes routes come to mind. Each situation is unique and shouldn't be constrained by rigid dogma in determining the right course of action. I would be among the first to suggest that the decision to do so should come after much thought and consultation, which this forum is in a perfect position to serve.

I for one feel this would be better served if opinion served up in cryptic four word sentences was accompanied by a paragraph or two of justification.

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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by aitch » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:20 pm

Hey Nails
I just heard a rumour that "an old dude with big boots" did Skywalker on Sat. Any comment?
H.

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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by Tricouni » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:28 pm

Hey Aitch, "old dude with boots?" Not me, that was Culbert! And Heather and Vance, too. Jeremy has promised to haul me up later in August. I did Slab Alley yesterday. Still a fun, pleasant route.

G

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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by aitch » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:11 pm

Wow! Good for Dick. I hope you enjoy your climb in Aug. You can get the beta from Dick. Let me know how it goes. I am sorta/kinda/maybe considering a 50th anniversary ascent of Europa/Crap Crags with Jeff M next year....... We'll see.
H.

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Re: Spring Cleaning

Post by Lurch » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:15 pm

How about it boys? Where is bruce's reply? Why no discussion? Certainly sounds like the pitch has changed for the worse since it's fa? How is this fair?

I'm all for keeping the history and character if the fa intact, I consider routes like snake and merci me spicy, and fun. In this case though it sounds like a necessary piece of the route is now missing so maybe it requires thinking about alternate protection?

IMHO if discussion is not pursued, decisions will be made.

Mike

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