remove via ferrata south peak?

[peder ourom]

I would like to remove the south peak via ferrata that was installed a couple of years ago, and would like the local the climbing community to vote on this important matter. A padded 2 jack system has been tested that can remove the rungs with no damage to the rock. Drill holes would then be filled in with a grout / granite mix.

This ferrata was installed by an individual who used low quality and uncertified materials, and is already deteriorating. It was also placed in an easily accessed location , and will without a doubt injure or kill hikers. Additionally, it serves no practical purpose. For this and many other reasons, European via ferrata's are installed by the community, not by individuals. This low quality hazard was obviously done by a person with no actual via ferrata knowledge or experience.
For all of these reasons, my feelings are that this ferrata needs to be removed. This kind of project needs to be done only with the agreement of the local climbing community. The removal will be done in such a way that it can be reinstalled with certifed materials, if approved by BC parks.

And please note, I think proper Via Ferrata's are wonderful things.

[supafly]

keep in mind you're asking a bunch of climbers this question - i would imagine the answer is going to be swayed towards removing them since we are not the primary users of it.

does anyone know who actually does use the via ferrata?

are there via ferrata clubs out there?

i've never heard of anyone actually using this specific vf?

[Optimally-Primed]

I am a local, a climber, a route developer, and a hiker. And I use the via ferrata all the time. A standard afternoon hike is up the Squaw trail to the Chief's 3 peaks, and down the standard trail. A sign is already posted at the base of the via ferrata indicating that this is climbing terrain and other precautionary notes. BC Parks installed this sign. Most locals with whom I've spoken also enjoy the via ferrata regularly. Peder, I believe that removing and not immediately replace the via ferrata would be a controversial move. I, for one, would not be pleased and would not support you on this.

With the current funding situation, BC Parks is not going to be involved in replacing such a structure. Consensus---on any matter---in the climbing community seems more myth than real. The way things get done is by individuals taking initiative.

If you want a safer via ferrata, I recommend that you carry up the needed materials and a drill and install it yourself. In the meantime, if you don't like it, just walk on by and leave it to us who do enjoy it.

-Jeremy

[Aaron]

keep in mind you're asking a bunch of climbers this question - i would imagine the answer is going to be swayed towards removing them since we are not the primary users of it.

does anyone know who actually does use the via ferrata?

are there via ferrata clubs out there?

i've never heard of anyone actually using this specific vf?

It makes the summit trails much more interesting as it forms a large loop. Hike the backside to the North Summit then walk aback along the cliff edge to center summit, then to the via ferata, then up to the south summit. Fun IMO.

On a related note. I'm beginning to sense a rebellion in the making. Will 2011 be the year Squamish climbers rise up against their dictator and demand changes that will see his efforts corrected. In case you didn't know, the maker of the vf in question is --surprise, surprise-- Robin Barley. If substandard mank is on trial here, then the vf is definitely guilty. Clarify for me this one thing, are we talking about removing mank? or are we talking about getting on the 'lets beat up Robin' bus?

[mcfly]

I don't think anybody (route developer aside) should be removing bolts/stations/ladders/chains [b]unless the removal is done concurrently with upgrading of the existing hardware and does not alter the nature of the route[/b]. I don't need any f@cking climbing police to make my decisions for me - thank you very much.

[mcfly]

"If you want a safer via ferrata, I recommend that you carry up the needed materials and a drill and install it yourself. In the meantime, if you don't like it, just walk on by and leave it to us who do enjoy it."

I agree with this statement 100%
Now if you would also apply the words "bolt", "station" or "anchor" in place of "via ferrata"...

[MGarcia]

When did some self entitled climbers become police to all rock related issues? Is winter creeping in on them? Please just go ski for a few months...
We should brace ourselves for climbers polling to find out if the Whistler gondola towers bolted to granite should be removed as well, or maybe BC hydro's towers.

[squamish climber]

Many of you guys are missing the point and haven't addressed the issue that non-climbers are likely to use this via ferrata. Granted, I haven't seen it, but I believe it is easily accessible to hikers.

Given that Parks has posted a sign indicates they are concerned of the safety of the thing, but that may not stop a hiker from using it and falling off it or having it fail.
I think there is a big difference between a via ferrata and and bolted climb. Bolted climbs should be done using widely accepted hardware and hopefully in line with local style and ethics. Via ferrata's on the other hand are 'aid climbs' intended to open up the vertical world to recreational hikers. I don't think we want any via ferratas put in anywhere on the Grand or elsewhere on the Chief. Yes, this is a bit of a 'slippery slope' style argument but there could be some basis to it. We don't want to give anybody the right to argue that there is already a via ferrata on the Chief when they propose putting one in to take tourists up the front side of the Chief.
Maybe we should stop taking the line that some in the community are being 'nanny police' and the people with the original idea to install a via ferrata or new bolted route on non-standard hardware should consider all the long term implications of doing so before going ahead. Then we may not get into as many situations where people think the best and safest option is to remove it.

[Optimally-Primed]

Is this turning into a debate between people who have actually seen the "via ferrata" and like it and those who haven't seen it and don't like it.

Pardon me for saying this, but ignorance is not a point of view.

I would recommend that if people care enough to comment, that they go up there and have a look at the thing first. Heck, even go up it. It might just change your mind. It did so in the past to other skeptics.

[original gorby]

I find it difficult to "stop taking the line that some in the community are being nanny police" when that seems to be exactly what is happening.
Much has been done this winter to polarize opinions in the Squamish climbing community.

[pbeckham]

Pretty contentious issue, slippery slope and nest of vipers.

I've hiked the ferrata a couple times and my initial reaction has been, great idea, lousy execution.

Does such a contrivance have a place on the Chief?
IMHO, just as much as the ladders and chains placed by BC Parks and the bolts we climbers place, and that doesn't make any of them "right".

Should there have been agreement by consensus before the ferrata was put up or for it to be removed and or replaced?
Again, IMHO, impossible to achieve in the diversity of strongly held views and opinions in our community.

At one point there was talk of BC Parks removing the ferrata.
If the ferrata goes, so should the ladders and chains haphazardly and poorly placed by BC Parks on the summit slabs of the Chief.
Ultimately, this may be the best solution as it's a position most in keeping with the Park's founding agreement that the summits of the Chief are "sacred and special places" that should be left unmolested by human development.

If the ferrata is going to stay, and I think it should, then it should be installed to the highest possible standard and with careful craftsmanship that demonstrates due diligence and a commitment to the safety of all park users.

Like many other contentious issues related to the habits and behavior of we park users, we need to be circumspect in our judgements and impeccable with our words in these very public forums. Let's be guided by sound principles and healthy values and let our actions quietly speak louder than our words.

Peace

PB

[Aaron]

I find it difficult to "stop taking the line that some in the community are being nanny police" when that seems to be exactly what is happening.
Much has been done this winter to polarize opinions in the Squamish climbing community.

Naaah.... more like some in the community are choosing to no longer tolerate the shenanigans of ONE individual.

[squamish climber]

Like many other contentious issues related to the habits and behavior of we park users, we need to be circumspect in our judgements and impeccable with our words in these very public forums. Let's be guided by sound principles and healthy values and let our actions quietly speak louder than our words.

Peace

PB

Wise words Perry -- thanks for posting up. You managed to change the way I look at the issue.

[T Knight]

If the VF is in poor condition but a desirable item to have by consensus of the community the I believe it ought to be replaced.

If the community believes it should be removed and not replaced then it should be removed using best possible practices - and I think Peder has got that in hand - AND remove the ladders and stuff on the "reg route" as well.

Not all routes have to be accessible to tourons...........IMHO.

Basically I agree with what Perry wrote and add a huge plus one to the thought process here it's not about who put the thing up but what condition it's in & how the community conducts itself.

So keep the flamefests to zero.

[crusty the clown]

ah yes ..... 'the community'........ who and what is it ???

So here is my perspective from a Squamish climber and resident with the hindsight of 35 years of Squamish climbing.

I really enjoy the VF. The hike from Hospital hill across the Stawamus River up the Squaw trail over the summits and down .......absolutely unique and wonderful and no carbon burned !

So for all of those who haven't used it ..... if you remove it, it doesn't change your experience but it very negatively impacts those of us locals who enjoy its presence. If you don't remove it it doesn't impact your experience but allows us to continue to enjoy it.

So remove it ...... negative user impact.
Don't remove it ...... positive user experience remains.

...... and for all who have never used it or seen it how can you really comment on it. The hikers really don't use it, they can't even find it ! With the BC Parks sign comes a gray acceptance of it and if you engage BC PArks to remove it then the government has precidence to remove 'climbing hardware' from the park ........ it may sound paranoid but having worked for BC Parks and government in the past I am aware of the beasts nature.

Make a big issue over this and get the government involved and you may create some very negative effects on the entire Squamish climbing experience.

............. let sleeping dogs lie !!!