re: polish? anything to do about it?

[c-plus]

I just came back from my first visit to Yosemite and couldn’t help but reflect on how polished some of the classic moderate free climbs had become after years and years of climber’s feet. Some were incredibly slick! I figure this is very unfortunate since:
- Great climbs become permanently altered such that future climbers will never be able to enjoy them the way previous generations did.
- Once the climbs stop being so good for beginners, it causes crowding on other moderate climbs which only accelerates the wear and tear on them.

This got me a little depressed since it suggests an almost inevitable deterioration of many great climbs and demonstrates what cliffs like Burgers and Fries and Neat and Cool might one day look like- they’re already slick, but think of what they’ll eventually become! What will Diedre look like in 30 years? Flying circus?

So is there anything to be done about this? My personal musings are:
- Maybe we should just get rid of the “star ratings” in guidebooks. All this does is get everybody to line up for the same climb. I mean, Diedre is a good climb, but there are other good ones nearby too. People will have fun on them too and it’ll spread the load around.
- Encourage guiding companies to diversify in the cliffs that they use for training people.
- We should all go out and clean a new moderate climb. Once again, spread the load out.

Thoughts? I figure the last option is probably our best hope.

PS, trying to “ban” top roping or something like that on popular climbs is a non-starter. For one it smacks of elitism and for another, it might not even make a difference if you consider that Penny lane typically isn’t top roped and it’s polished too……

[Aaron]

My two cents.

If you want to point a finger at polishing you need only look as far as the gear on your rack. Sure hands and feet contribute, but they can't hold a candle to continuous placement and often forceful removal of our aluminum climbing widgets. So I would agree with you that blaming topropers is not only elitist but its also wrong. The true minimalists practicing a form of climbing with the least amount of impact are the topropers. I'd even put them ahead of the boulderers, given that they don't use/need chalk as much.

[thebigchin]

My two cents.

Sure hands and feet contribute, but they can't hold a candle to continuous placement and often forceful removal of our aluminum climbing widgets.

Uh... really? I think you may be on to something when you mention chalk, but to blame clean pro for the polish on classics is stretching it a bit IMHO.

What is the answer? I'm not sure that there is one, other than an awareness campaign on the corrosive nature of chalk and hand oils. Chalk has become such a crutch. Sure, it's pretty handy on a humid Aug afternoon, but do you really need chalk on a cool autumn day? I think not.

[smallman]

We are really lucky here in Squamish in that granite is much more resistant to polishing than the limestone present in the Rockies or other areas. You want to see what extensive top-roping can do to a cliff - go to Wastooch slabs, Heart Creek or Grotto Canyon near Canmore. Some climbs there are a number grade harder because of polishing. Given the amount of traffic Burgers and Fries, Neat and Cool, and the Sugarloaf / Bog wall see it is amazing the climbs in these areas are still enjoyable. Maybe a way to deter excessive top roping would be to remove the bolted anchors on these cliffs to force placement of gear anchors. This seems to have worked in the case of Penny lane which would likely be top-roped all day if it had a bolted anchor anchor station. I also think select guidebooks and star rating systems contribute significantly to polishing.

As for the issue of chalk, gear, and polishing, I think that rubber, poor footwork, and thrutching on climbs way too hard for your ability are the major agents causing of polishing. I, for one am not giving up my rock shoes anytime soon but I won't work the crap out of routes way out of my abilities. If everyone did the same, maybe polishing would decrease.

As for Route development - Great Idea. However I think to be effective at spreading moderate climber traffic new climbs need to be developed not individually but as a small area with multiple climbs of similar grade in order to get traffic and stay clean. Good examples of this are most of Jeremy Frimer's new areas (mosquito area, Genesis, Wiretap). The reason burgers and fries and neat and cool are so heavily trafficked is that numerous climbs of a similar grade with easily accessible top anchors are in close proximity such that these areas are effectively open air climbing gyms.

Polishing rehabilitation: I wonder if polish can be pressure washed off or if a scrubbing holds with a weak solution of muriatic acid or tsp would remove rubber polish.

Anyway, interesting topic.

Chris Small

[c-plus]

I may be wrong, but I've got a feeling that most of the polish is due to the flailing of feet on friction moves. i think anywhere there's a layback move is especially susceptible.

Conversely, on face climbs, like those in chek where falling off a climb more often than not (at least at the lower grades) occurs with reasonable feet and where your hands simply fail to hold onto the next hand hold, this might not be such a problem. Might also be due to differences in the type of rock. I'm no geologist....

Cudos to all the route developers that have taken the time to put up moderates. As long as those routes make their way into the conciousness of new climbers, it'll help spread them out!!

[RobWall]

The good moderate routes at French limestone sport crags (Buoux, Verdon...) are a lot more polished than anything here, but it is a long-term problem even on Granite I think.

I have heard that in Eastern Europe it is common to plastic nuts, or knots for pro on soft rock that is easily damaged. This might work on Grantite?


I no longer try routes that are 'too hard for me' because I don't enjoy that, but I am pretty sure that this damages rock as the people above say.

I have often wondered if polish is 'repairable' with a chemical solution, or even sand blasting?

Removing stars is an interesting idea - would any guide book authors / climbing website hosters care to comment?

[Dru]

Squamish polish is caused by one current thing - flailing feet - and one old thing - glaciers.

Rainfall is the best thing for removing polish - rainfall and moss. Let a polished route get covered over with moss and dirt for 20 years and the organic acids released will make it nice and sharp again when it's rescrubbed later.

[Aaron]

Squamish polish is caused by one current thing - flailing feet -

I call bull sh*t. Sure, flailing feet contribute, but am I the only person who's noticed that polishing occurs inside the cracks as well? You know, those little spots that make for oh so great finger locks. Spots so narrow that not even the flailing feet of a four year old would fit, but good golly does a number 4 nut just sink right in. Ever get a nut stuck? What did you do to get it out? Unless you start your climb with a pre-soak dip in battery-acid I can't believe that the gentle palming of flesh on rock can come close to the forceful, profanity inducing, WFT-do-mean-you-forgot-the-nut-tool, bashing, twisting, removal of trad gear.

As for pointing the blame on the star rating in guide books. I believe this is fallacy of false cause. Routes get polished because they're good, not because they have stars. So if we hope to reducing polishing, we have to reduce their quality. I believe we can all contribute to this endeavor in many ways. So next time when your in the bluffs and nature calls, be sure to statistically drop that steamer at the base of one of the more effected routes. The future generations of Squamish climbers will thank you.

[slopr]

i don't think that chalk is as much of a contributing factor here seeing as most "classic" climbs are less than vertical and the sheer amount of rain we get keeps it from building up. I agree that gear probably does break down the crystals in the granite on the inside of the crack but i don't think that anyone is complaining about the nice smooth jams, more about the slippery feet it seems- kind of a catch 22. Is it possible that many of these smooth jams in Squam were caused by pins or pitons? In Yosemite this is a major contributor to the polishing of the insides of cracks as aids was the way they were climbed for many years with multiple ascents requiring the placement and removal of pitons and pins, which in turn made "clean" pro like nuts possible. Not sure if that could be a factor here. I also agree that flailing feet are the biggest current factor. It is true that someone TR'ing may be practicing minimally but when 15 different groups of 3 someones practice minimally on the same climb every day it will probably have more impact on the rock than the climb that is led once every few days, even if you did forget your nut tool!

[J Mace]

So Aaron thinks stuck nuts are why some routes like flying circus are polished?

But calls bullsh*t on thousands of slippers trained in gyms not jamming but sliding their crappy foot work all over the place on TR...

Sloper I dont think pitons cause polishing, they cause scarring which leads to bigger pods in which people can place fingers in, but you wont get a smooth rock by bashing steel against it.

Hands feet and loads of traffic

I dont see any stars in any of the Euro guide books I have used, maybe its a North American thing?

[jipstyle]

I call bull sh*t. Sure, flailing feet contribute, but am I the only person who's noticed that polishing occurs inside the cracks as well? You know, those little spots that make for oh so great finger locks. Spots so narrow that not even the flailing feet of a four year old would fit, but good golly does a number 4 nut just sink right in. Ever get a nut stuck? What did you do to get it out? Unless you start your climb with a pre-soak dip in battery-acid I can't believe that the gentle palming of flesh on rock can come close to the forceful, profanity inducing, WFT-do-mean-you-forgot-the-nut-tool, bashing, twisting, removal of trad gear.

Actually, over time the oils in your hands combined with chalk and lots of traffic absolutely will polish granite.

On the other hand, "forceful, profanity-inducing .. bashing, twisting, removal of trad gear" will scar, abrade, fracture and otherwise add texture to the rock.

As for pointing the blame on the star rating in guide books. I believe this is fallacy of false cause. Routes get polished because they're good, not because they have stars.

They're polished because they see a lot of traffic. A great route with no traffic will not get polished. The question is why do they see a lot of traffic. A great route that is not in any guide books won't see much traffic. A great route with a 1 star rating will see less traffic than a mediocre route with a 5 star rating.

It is pretty clear to me that the ratings provided in guide books guide new climbers to their weekend routes. I know it has helped me choose when other options (ie, a seasoned local) were not available for consultation.

So if we hope to reducing polishing, we have to reduce their quality. I believe we can all contribute to this endeavor in many ways. So next time when your in the bluffs and nature calls, be sure to statistically drop that steamer at the base of one of the more effected routes. The future generations of Squamish climbers will thank you.

Oh hyperbole. What a wonderful way to contribute to a discussion. You are second only to sarcasm in your utility.

[Anders Ourom]

Squamish polish is caused by one current thing - flailing feet - and one old thing - glaciers.

Rainfall is the best thing for removing polish - rainfall and moss. Let a polished route get covered over with moss and dirt for 20 years and the organic acids released will make it nice and sharp again when it's rescrubbed later.

Rainfall and runoff sometimes contribute to polishing, too. But human traffic, whether flailing or not, gear placement and removal, and addition of rubber and skin oils, are main factors.

It took us a while to figure out that the places with more lichen and moss tend to have more holds or friction. Partly because we first worked on existing routes, which often followed partly-cleaned (from aiding) lines, and partly because when we ventured on new lines, at first on the Apron, we stayed on the cleaner areas. And maybe we didn't want the work of cleaning the grubbiest places.

[Dru]

Rainfall doesn't cause polish. If anything, it causes weathering, leading to less polish.

[harihari]

Rainfall doesn't cause polish. If anything, it causes weathering, leading to less polish.

true. Climb flying circus in late August, throw a couple more letter grades on there. climb it in march, back down to 10a...the rains, plus a bit of freeze&thaw, work wonders. Dru is right-- it's gumbie, gym-trained feet, and people on topropes doing stuff that's too far above their grade.

Go watch a 5.11 climber do Crime. Then watch his girlfriend/her boyfriend "follow" it on TR, lay it back, thrash thrash thrash...

[Aaron]

So Aaron thinks stuck nuts are why some routes like flying circus are polished?

Yes.

believe it or not but I've had this conversation before. Once at Neal and Cool while with my anti-toprope friend. "Gald! look at all those gumbies polishing up that classic climb, what with their lousy foot work and their books with stars! Who the hell do they think they are?" To which I responded "Dude, I'm telling you it's the trad gear man! The trad gear!" To which he declared "Boulder-crap! We'll climb it and you'll see." Sure enough, we got on the route and in Every place where one could expect to find a perfect nut placement, of which Flying Circus has many, the rock was suspiciously smooth. Much smoother then any other area of rock, smoother then the hand holds, smoother then the parallel sided bits of crack.

Sloper I dont think pitons cause polishing, they cause scarring which leads to bigger pods in which people can place fingers in, but you wont get a smooth rock by bashing steel against it.

Yes you will get soother rock by bashing steel against it.
Every time. Try it some time.