Criminal Charges for Route Cleaning?
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Optimally-Primed
- Senior Member
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Criminal Charges for Route Cleaning?
I recently returned from a month-long trip to Peru to catch wind of nasty rumours floating around Squamish aimed at me. One rumour was so strange and obnoxious that I just had to follow up.
The rumour was that Kevin McLane was lobbying Dave Zevick at BC Parks to have me arrested and charged a criminal offence for the development of The Milk Road. I kid you not.
I asked Dave Zevick if this was indeed happening and he confirmed it. I stand accused of criminal misconduct!
Once upon a time, I had a blog that was documenting the cleaning process on The Milk Road. I was encouraged by certain senior members of the community to take down the blog and clean my route quietly. I did just that. But in the quiet space that I deliberately created, certain individuals have been spreading rumours about me, rumours based on falsities. I have been silent long enough on this matter. It's time to set the record straight.
Fact 1: I was aware and concerned about potential harm that could come to Andrew Boyd and Jeremy Smith's route Great White North, which is below pitch 6 of The Milk Road. I was aware and concerned before I began work on The Milk Road. I decided to initiate consultation with the first ascentionists before deciding whether or not to develop what is now The Milk Road.
Fact 2: I called and emailed Jeremy Smith several times to meet with him so that he could raise any concerns about the process. He did not return my calls or cancelled a once-scheduled meeting and did not attempt to reschedule. (Attempt at consultation #1)
Fact 3. I consulted Kevin McLane before I began work. I did not ask him for permission or anything of the sort. He has neither the authority to grant nor deny such permission. I asked him if, in his opinion, the route would fall inside or outside the falcon closure area. He said "outside". (He turned out to be incorrect.) That was the extent of our conversation.
Fact 4. After I began work, Jeremy Smith wrote a harshly worded message on this forum. Andrew Boyd followed suit with an email directly to me. I decided to follow the advice that I have been given by the aformentioned senior members of the community and handle the matter behind closed doors.
Fact 5. I tried again for consultation. As Andrew, Jeremy, and I are all members of the Climbers Advisory Committee, I requested of the chair of the committee that the issue be addressed at a meeting. My requests were denied. (Attempt at consultation #2)
Fact 6. I requested of the SAS president that a meeting be held to address these matters. One such meeting was held but I was not informed of nor invited to the meeting. (Attempt at consultation #3)
Fact 7. I tried again, requesting of SAS that a meeting (with me present) be held. This time I was granted the request. I met with Jeremy Smith and Todd Gerhardt (Todd acting as a facilitator on behalf of SAS) to discuss the matter. In our meeting, we discussed many issues including rockfall onto Great White North. We came up with ideas of how I could minimize rockfall onto that route and agreed that I would try to follow them as best as possible. We concluded the meeting with a consensus that I would continue to clean The Milk Road and would minimize rockfall onto Great White North. I asked how Andrew Boyd's opinions would be heard and addressed. Jeremy responded "I'll take care of Boyd". (Attempt at consultation #4)
Fact 8. A few CRAG meetings later (The Milk Road was almost done at that time), Andrew Boyd verbally attacked me, yelling at me, accusing me, and swearing in my face. The accusation was that I "shat" on Great White North and "destroyed" the route. Kevin McLane backed him up, making offhand threats of consequences for my action. Jeremy Smith was standing right there. I asked Jeremy if, in light of our meeting with Todd some months previous ("I'll take care of Boyd"), he would like to comment. He chose to not comment.
Fact 9. After finishing cleaning The Milk Road, I spent approximately 5 days recleaning other routes in the area. Among these routes was Great White North. In recleaning their route, I also took note of any effects of rockfall. Not a single bolt on Great White North was affected by rockfall. Of the 6 pitches, 5 had no rockfall marks nearby. Pitch 2, a slab traverse, had 10 to 20 white marks from rockfall where the lichen had been cleaned off. I was unable to determine whether these marks changed the character of the slab climbing. I informed Andrew and Jeremy of my recleaning process, apologized sincerely for any damage that may have occurred, and asked what I can do now to help. Andrew Boyd has since rappelled the route, photographed the damage, and deemed the pitch "destroyed". I am unaware at this time of what grade and quality the pitch was before and what grade and quality the pitch is now.
Fact 10. I return from Peru and catch wind of rumours that I had asked Kevin McLane and Andrew Boyd for permission to clean The Milk Road, that they said no, and I went ahead anyways. These are rumours that are counter to the facts.
Fact 11. The Climbers Advisory Group is an arm of SAS, comprised of members of the community appointed by SAS for this purpose. Our mandate includes establishing a Best Practices guide for route cleaning to address safety standards (e.g., to avoid trundling rocks on passers by), and how the falcon closures are to be carried out. These Best Practices are meant to be understood as suggestions from well-travelled peers. At last night's meeting, the tone changed to one of enforcement for violations. This, we were told, would be to include "protecting cultural values", which is code for "drop a rock onto an existing route in the cleaning process and go to jail". Dave Zevick confirmed that "certain individuals" had voiced concerns to him in private, which led him to this change of direction (to enforcement).
Fact 12. I stand firmly opposed to this new direction of the committee and am currently considering my options.
Fact 13. I care deeply about climbing in Squamish and have put my money, blood, and sweat where my mouth is. In the past 3 years, I have developed 39 new pitches of moderate climbing, designed to be accessible and enjoyable to the many. I am deeply grateful for the support I have received from friends coming out for the day to scrub, to people on this forum or in the community in general who have stood up for me when I've been falsely or unreasonable accused, and to all the people who have climbed and enjoyed my routes. The chalk you left says to me that you were there and had an adventure. If it was a positive adventure, that's all the thanks I seek.
Fact 14. I am deeply concerned about the direction of Squamish development. A very few squeeky wheels in the community are getting a lot of grease. And their engine seems to be going full throttle at stopping and punishing route developers like me.
I've been silent long enough.
The rumour was that Kevin McLane was lobbying Dave Zevick at BC Parks to have me arrested and charged a criminal offence for the development of The Milk Road. I kid you not.
I asked Dave Zevick if this was indeed happening and he confirmed it. I stand accused of criminal misconduct!
Once upon a time, I had a blog that was documenting the cleaning process on The Milk Road. I was encouraged by certain senior members of the community to take down the blog and clean my route quietly. I did just that. But in the quiet space that I deliberately created, certain individuals have been spreading rumours about me, rumours based on falsities. I have been silent long enough on this matter. It's time to set the record straight.
Fact 1: I was aware and concerned about potential harm that could come to Andrew Boyd and Jeremy Smith's route Great White North, which is below pitch 6 of The Milk Road. I was aware and concerned before I began work on The Milk Road. I decided to initiate consultation with the first ascentionists before deciding whether or not to develop what is now The Milk Road.
Fact 2: I called and emailed Jeremy Smith several times to meet with him so that he could raise any concerns about the process. He did not return my calls or cancelled a once-scheduled meeting and did not attempt to reschedule. (Attempt at consultation #1)
Fact 3. I consulted Kevin McLane before I began work. I did not ask him for permission or anything of the sort. He has neither the authority to grant nor deny such permission. I asked him if, in his opinion, the route would fall inside or outside the falcon closure area. He said "outside". (He turned out to be incorrect.) That was the extent of our conversation.
Fact 4. After I began work, Jeremy Smith wrote a harshly worded message on this forum. Andrew Boyd followed suit with an email directly to me. I decided to follow the advice that I have been given by the aformentioned senior members of the community and handle the matter behind closed doors.
Fact 5. I tried again for consultation. As Andrew, Jeremy, and I are all members of the Climbers Advisory Committee, I requested of the chair of the committee that the issue be addressed at a meeting. My requests were denied. (Attempt at consultation #2)
Fact 6. I requested of the SAS president that a meeting be held to address these matters. One such meeting was held but I was not informed of nor invited to the meeting. (Attempt at consultation #3)
Fact 7. I tried again, requesting of SAS that a meeting (with me present) be held. This time I was granted the request. I met with Jeremy Smith and Todd Gerhardt (Todd acting as a facilitator on behalf of SAS) to discuss the matter. In our meeting, we discussed many issues including rockfall onto Great White North. We came up with ideas of how I could minimize rockfall onto that route and agreed that I would try to follow them as best as possible. We concluded the meeting with a consensus that I would continue to clean The Milk Road and would minimize rockfall onto Great White North. I asked how Andrew Boyd's opinions would be heard and addressed. Jeremy responded "I'll take care of Boyd". (Attempt at consultation #4)
Fact 8. A few CRAG meetings later (The Milk Road was almost done at that time), Andrew Boyd verbally attacked me, yelling at me, accusing me, and swearing in my face. The accusation was that I "shat" on Great White North and "destroyed" the route. Kevin McLane backed him up, making offhand threats of consequences for my action. Jeremy Smith was standing right there. I asked Jeremy if, in light of our meeting with Todd some months previous ("I'll take care of Boyd"), he would like to comment. He chose to not comment.
Fact 9. After finishing cleaning The Milk Road, I spent approximately 5 days recleaning other routes in the area. Among these routes was Great White North. In recleaning their route, I also took note of any effects of rockfall. Not a single bolt on Great White North was affected by rockfall. Of the 6 pitches, 5 had no rockfall marks nearby. Pitch 2, a slab traverse, had 10 to 20 white marks from rockfall where the lichen had been cleaned off. I was unable to determine whether these marks changed the character of the slab climbing. I informed Andrew and Jeremy of my recleaning process, apologized sincerely for any damage that may have occurred, and asked what I can do now to help. Andrew Boyd has since rappelled the route, photographed the damage, and deemed the pitch "destroyed". I am unaware at this time of what grade and quality the pitch was before and what grade and quality the pitch is now.
Fact 10. I return from Peru and catch wind of rumours that I had asked Kevin McLane and Andrew Boyd for permission to clean The Milk Road, that they said no, and I went ahead anyways. These are rumours that are counter to the facts.
Fact 11. The Climbers Advisory Group is an arm of SAS, comprised of members of the community appointed by SAS for this purpose. Our mandate includes establishing a Best Practices guide for route cleaning to address safety standards (e.g., to avoid trundling rocks on passers by), and how the falcon closures are to be carried out. These Best Practices are meant to be understood as suggestions from well-travelled peers. At last night's meeting, the tone changed to one of enforcement for violations. This, we were told, would be to include "protecting cultural values", which is code for "drop a rock onto an existing route in the cleaning process and go to jail". Dave Zevick confirmed that "certain individuals" had voiced concerns to him in private, which led him to this change of direction (to enforcement).
Fact 12. I stand firmly opposed to this new direction of the committee and am currently considering my options.
Fact 13. I care deeply about climbing in Squamish and have put my money, blood, and sweat where my mouth is. In the past 3 years, I have developed 39 new pitches of moderate climbing, designed to be accessible and enjoyable to the many. I am deeply grateful for the support I have received from friends coming out for the day to scrub, to people on this forum or in the community in general who have stood up for me when I've been falsely or unreasonable accused, and to all the people who have climbed and enjoyed my routes. The chalk you left says to me that you were there and had an adventure. If it was a positive adventure, that's all the thanks I seek.
Fact 14. I am deeply concerned about the direction of Squamish development. A very few squeeky wheels in the community are getting a lot of grease. And their engine seems to be going full throttle at stopping and punishing route developers like me.
I've been silent long enough.
Re: Criminal Charges for Route Cleaning?
Rumor also has it that Kevin is also trying to shut down the Squamish Rod and Gun clubOptimally-Primed wrote:The rumour was that Kevin McLane was lobbying Dave Zevick at BC Parks to have me arrested and charged a criminal offence for the development of The Milk Road. I kid you not.
As if that will ever happen
Do you see a pattern here?
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pinnbasher
- Junior Member
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- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:03 am
- Location: Squamish
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Optimally-Primed
- Senior Member
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:04 am
The persons involved have spent many hours in CRAG meetings together, discussing such matters. Last night was another example. It doesn't work. Unlike most conflicts, this one does not seem to reduce to a misunderstanding. Hidden agendas lurk in the mist.I think everyone needs to get together in a room with a few beers and sort this out.
Well you aren't going to sort it out online since this seems to be a one way conversation at this point...Optimally-Primed wrote:The persons involved have spent many hours in CRAG meetings together, discussing such matters. Last night was another example. It doesn't work. Unlike most conflicts, this one does not seem to reduce to a misunderstanding. Hidden agendas lurk in the mist.I think everyone needs to get together in a room with a few beers and sort this out.
This is really sad, new long routes are the signs of a healthy climbing community. I don't get why people would feel so insecure they'd have to try and give you a hard time over this.
Thanks for your work to the right of mosquito and wiretap (which i've climbed) and the milk road (which i hope to climb on my next visit).
I hope this comes to the logical conclusion that no harm was done.
Thanks for your work to the right of mosquito and wiretap (which i've climbed) and the milk road (which i hope to climb on my next visit).
I hope this comes to the logical conclusion that no harm was done.
Jeremy, I'm a little confused here. What exactly would they try and charge you with?? I mean, let's say that trundling sh*t off of your route destroyed every single hold, bolt and anchor on another route (not suggesting any of this might remotely have happened- purely hypothetical). while that would suck for both the developers of the other route and everyone who would like to climb it, no one actually "owns" the rock or the route so it's not as if you damaged or destroyed their property. would be different if someone got hurt but I'm under the impression that's not the complaint here.
I seem to remember someone complaining bitterly awhile ago about the removal of trees, but if that's the issue then it would apply to every route ever put up.
so what gives?
I seem to remember someone complaining bitterly awhile ago about the removal of trees, but if that's the issue then it would apply to every route ever put up.
so what gives?
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Optimally-Primed
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:04 am
That's right. Andrew and Kevin have been watching this post and instead of engaging in some kind of straight-up dialog, have been whining to Dave Zevick by email (CCing me). They like to play behind closed doors. Business as usual for them.Well you aren't going to sort it out online since this seems to be a one way conversation at this point...
I'm still not sure myself. It's not about cutting trees. It's about alleged damage to Great White North. They see it as a route of "cultural value" and they see the Park as having the duty to protect cultural values, using law enforcement if required. The Park is the property of the people and the province of BC. BC Parks is charged with its preservation among other things. Is the twist clearer now?I'm a little confused here. What exactly would they try and charge you with??
Jer--
You were upfront with everything from the get-go regarding Milk Road and other projects. Nobody was hurt. Boyd and Smith can't-- or won't-- show what, if any, damage was done to their route. Perhaps they should reclimb P2 and see how/if it has changed, and tell us that.
Regarding conversations between Kevin McLane, Dave Z, Smith. Boyd et al...it reeks of indecency to go behind somebody's back, esp. somebody you sit on committees with.
I think that Kevin-- if he is after "legal remedies" for a crime nobody can define (this is going to show up on my blog as Kafka Goes Cleaning)-- should explain, on here, what exactly he is thinking and trying to get. Kevin, would you like to explain your side of what's up? What crime was it exactly that was committed, and how did Frimer allegedly fail the community?
I would suggest to the community that the LAST thing we need is law aimed specifically at climbers, the Chief, new routing, etc, which is what will happen if anybody is charged with any "crime" or whatever it is that Frimer is being harassed about. You get a conviction or whatever it's a precedent. As soon as you have a law about something as vague, complex, situation-dependent etc as new routing, people are gonna stop doing it. It is already tedious, expensive and dangerous. If the cost and legal risk goes up, you can kiss your new long routes-- and there are TONS left to do-- goodbye.
You were upfront with everything from the get-go regarding Milk Road and other projects. Nobody was hurt. Boyd and Smith can't-- or won't-- show what, if any, damage was done to their route. Perhaps they should reclimb P2 and see how/if it has changed, and tell us that.
Regarding conversations between Kevin McLane, Dave Z, Smith. Boyd et al...it reeks of indecency to go behind somebody's back, esp. somebody you sit on committees with.
I think that Kevin-- if he is after "legal remedies" for a crime nobody can define (this is going to show up on my blog as Kafka Goes Cleaning)-- should explain, on here, what exactly he is thinking and trying to get. Kevin, would you like to explain your side of what's up? What crime was it exactly that was committed, and how did Frimer allegedly fail the community?
I would suggest to the community that the LAST thing we need is law aimed specifically at climbers, the Chief, new routing, etc, which is what will happen if anybody is charged with any "crime" or whatever it is that Frimer is being harassed about. You get a conviction or whatever it's a precedent. As soon as you have a law about something as vague, complex, situation-dependent etc as new routing, people are gonna stop doing it. It is already tedious, expensive and dangerous. If the cost and legal risk goes up, you can kiss your new long routes-- and there are TONS left to do-- goodbye.
HEAR, HEAR! I seem to recall Kevin giving his blessing to that project (not that he (or anybody else is the local God). Although i could be wrong on that.Brendan wrote:If these guys are pissed at you for yh work you did on the Milk Road, what the hell should have been done about Europa?
Something doesn't add up.
The Europa people bombed a # of established routes, arguably created danger with that re-barred loose block, dammaged huge #s of trees, endangered beginner climbers by hanging V.O.C. gumbies off fixed lines and making them clean...
Mike-- your comments above are ad hominem. You are directing your comment at your view of me, rather than at the ideas presented. The community would be better off hearing what you think of the issues.MikeBlicker wrote:@chris you're the last person who should be giving advice on the politics of route development and damage control. Conflict resolution expert, chris stolz. laugh.
chris
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