Retro on Right Wing?

[rich k]

Adding iron to the route, and then saying "well if you want, climb it with natural gear" is a problematic argument-- we all know that the experience is profoundly changed by the presence of bolts.

true. it's hard to come up with a solution that will allow the route to see enough traffic AND satisfy the purest of ethics though. i agree that most climbers would clip a bolt that's within reach, especially when in an o/w, but what else do you do?

[XXXX]

if I recall this route hes been cleaned, or had cleaning attempts, several times in the recent past. Maybe talk to Drill Boring (Will Dorling) if he's around cause he had a go back in the 90's and ended up climbing Checkmate Arete instead. I think it was that always wet section at the bottom that spat him off, recall him saying it was more like 10d/11a with one aid move thru the wet than the 10c in McLane. Ask Kai, and Colin Moorehead too.

So neither Beckey (who did the aid ascent) or whoever did the FFA (was it Mead Hargis or somebody? Don MacPherson? Eric Weinstein?) needed bolts to get through the wide sections on this one right?. And if it's that wide then I doubt Beckey nailed his way through cause he wouldn't have big enough pins. Maybe these wide sections go at 5.9 Chimney? Or not so hard? In which case a leader capable of freeing the 10d crux shouldn't have too much trouble with them?

In any case it sounds to me like maybe the route doesn't require bolts as it is other issues than unprotectable wideness that are keeping people off it.

[CrackHead Brad]

This issue is getting stickier then wet chimney mud. I'll stay out of it. But our local ethic has traditionally only required permission from the first acsentionist to alter the style/pro of a climb. Since you already have that, have at her.

I 'd give you a hand on cleaning/pruning. I have a chainsaw, drill, and gas powered pressure washer, etc. as well as some interest in developing some of the surrounding rock.

[rich k]

you would carry a gas-powered pressure washer up the squaw trail?

[rich k]

and then proceed to pressure-wash an off-width with it? seriously?

[CrackHead Brad]

yeah, your right! wtf was i thinking...offer recanted. Good luck with the off width.

[Optimally-Primed]

I'm heading up Sunday to rap, fix, closely inspect, and photo the route. This should be done when it's dry as fixing will be a major challenge given the leaning nature of the corner. A few folks here have mentioned that they might be interested in getting involved. If any of you are keen on joining me on Sunday, give me a call at 604.721.7936 Saturday evening.

Jeremy

[Will Stanhope]

I've never done 'Right Wing' so I don't know the whole story about that particular route.

But I do think it is time to question whether the first ascentionist has the perogative to give the okay to add bolts to his/her route. In most other areas, Yosemite for example, rarely does the FAer give the okay for added bolts. But in Squamish, it happens all the time.

I'll give the Great Arch as an example because I'm more familiar with it. Keith Reid originally did the line using many fixed pins and in subsequent years apparently gave the okay to retrobolt it. I say 'apparently' here because this is all hearsay. If you haven't seen the line I'd reccomend you hike up there and check it out. It's stunning. But now you'll find a row of bolts on the right side of the wall, put in place by another climber. It goes on gear, the whole way up. It should be said that I have a huge amount of respect for both of these climbers. This one little route doesn't really change that at all. But I do see it as a step in the wrong direction.


Yes, the 'Great Arch' sees exponentially more traffic nowadays. And perhaps 'Right Wing' will as well. But is it worth it?

[harihari]

Will--

Did you say you can climb the Great Arch on trad gear? If so, why are (were) there pins in it?

If the Great Arch was originally protected with pins, it makes sense to retro it with bolts. My understanding is that people use pins cos they are a cheap and fast way of protecting a climb where you have incipient cracks. You will eventually "wear out" those pin placements. If you leave the pins in, they degrade.

If the route goes at 13a or whatever the Arch is, it would also seem that you (and you second) are not going to want to hang out and hammer away while you are doing your desperate pinky-tip underclinging!

[Optimally-Primed]

I fixed Right Wing this weekend. Wow! The corner pitch is monstrous: a full 60m rope stretcher with not a single good spot for a belay in between. It has some chimneying low down (I did see reasonable gear in the back of them) but the majority of it is hands to fingers. What a pitch! The short pitch connecting Eagle's Domain and the corner has a permanent wet streak and no protection beyond some marginal pins. So, I plan on putting a few bolts in there in due time. I now have permission from both the FAist and the FFAist.

If you're interested, I've posted 2 photos of the climb online at http://picasaweb.google.com/jeremyfrime ... WingBefore

I plan on working on it this coming weekend.

[MCpl]

Great work Jeremy. Now the fun begins..... cleaning.

[Will Stanhope]

Why were there pins in before? Convenience perhaps. Maybe an aid climbing recon to check it out. Maybe as a way to easier protect the line as a free climb. I don't know. Replacing pins with bolts is fine as long as there is no other alternative. But in the Great Arch's case, nuts and small cams suffice. Granted they are fidgety to place from calf-burning stances. But it's all there.

[Anders Ourom]

I was Jeremy's accomplice on Sunday, as we strung a spider's web down Right Wing. Hard and awkward work. The main corner should provide a long lead offering all kinds of jamming. It may be necessary to move the bolt belay below the last "beak" pitch down a few metres, so that ropes reach from the tree ledge at the bottom, but that would probably be a better location for other reasons anyway.

There is a cluster of four bolts half way up the corner, three 1/4", probably a hanging belay from the first ascent, plus what looked to be a 3/8" bolt with a home made hangar. They'll all be removed. I saw two fixed pins in the corner, plus one in an odd place below the beak - all can go. The corner itself should go entirely clean, although dampness may be an issue early in the year.

There is a short pitch leading from near the top of Eagle's Domain to the tree ledge at the base of the big corner. About 20 metres. There's an old pin in it, and one modern bolt. This pitch will almost always have some dampness, and frequently be wet. So there's a question of how to address this, so that it can be freed without too much foolishness when dry (or nearly so), but that it can be somehow frigged up when it's wet, but the corner is dry. Some planning and rehearsing will be needed, to figure out what's best. Probably two bolts, maybe three needed here.

As work will likely take place from the top down, and take four or five days, lots of time to think.

Anders

ps Should the name be changed to something more politically neutral?

[XXXX]

If we're gonna start bolting through sections that are always wet what about the flaring sopping a$% cracks at the bottom of Elephantiasis etc.? What about the Snake traverse? Maybe bolt Mercy Street and the last pitch of Rock On? Where will it end?