Kingswood Condo Project above Mamquam Blind Channel

[squamish climber]

This thread has been updated with the developers new proposal without a climbing centre see the bottom of the second page
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I'd be interested in hearing what people think of this proposal. The story says the developer wants the Climbing Centre to house offices for local, provincial and national climbing organizations and base camp for outdoor climbers and guides. My first thought reading this was what about the Adventure Centre? Isn't that facility supposed to serve the same purpose?

For those not familiar with Squamish, this would be the development site just before the bridge across the Mamquam Channel.

Squamish considers plans for new national climbing centre
By Kellly Sinoski, Vancouver Sun March 8, 2011 11:05 AM

Squamish is considering a proposal for a new National Climbing Centre next to the Stawamus Chief.

The Kingswood Group wants to develop the facility, which would include an indoor climbing wall, offices for local, provincial or national climbing organizations, climbing related research and educational programs, and a base camp for outdoor climbers and guides, at its Scott Crescent site on Highway 99. The Vancouver-based company proposes to build the NCC and work with the community to establish a community-based not-for-profit society that will be responsible for its administration.

John Moonen, spokesman for Kingswood Group, said the proposed facility would help Squamish "solidify its reputation as the Outdoor Recreational Capital of Canada" and provide benefits to the entire community.

"A waterfront walkway and commuter trail network will link Smoke Bluffs Park and downtown Squamish," he said. "It will open up the waterfront for everyone to enjoy, providing an inviting new gateway for visitors."

The developers have held a number of public meetings in Squamish, and said many of the ideas have been incorporated into their rezoning application. The plan also includes a retail component that will focus on climbing and outdoor recreation as well as housing designed to be compatible with Squamish's Official Community Plan.

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

Google Map: Scott Crecent

[squamish climber]

The Squamish Chief Newspaper also wrote on this story. The article says the proponents consulted with the local climbing community and quotes Will Stanhope:
“The Climbing Centre is shaping up to be a state-of-the-art facility,” he said in the statement. “When complete, the NCC will accommodate the most chalk-splattered rock veteran to the fresh-faced beginner. I am excited that climbers like me were consulted by the project team, giving us an opportunity to help usher in a facility that meshes community, climbing and adventure.”

It's good to see the developer met with local climbers. Was the Squamish Access Society also at the meeting? This is still at the idea stage, but what would access to Smoke Bluff Park be like from this facility, can you walk along the channel and up to the Bluffs from there?

[justme]

*is that to be taken seriously?
*offices for local, provincial and national climbing organizations? I wasn't aware there are any
*climbing research? not even hotspots like Spain, France, Austria have that kind of money. It's university students scrambling to write their thesis who do research
*state-of-the-art facility: well, in order to make it one, you'll need way more room than what is proposed

Sorry for the rant, but IMO you can build a gym either to make money (kids' birthdays) or to be some sort of national training facility. Both at the same time does not work. Is climbing even recognized as sport, and therefore eligible for governmental support, which is necessary to even create provincial etc climbing organizations?

Someone with a deeper understanding might be able to clear things up for me...

[squamish climber]

Just me - thanks for posting up. You made some good points. I'm also hoping others with more knowledge will jump in and comment.
I guess we have to be careful and not get too far ahead of ourselves. Proposals like this tend to be launched with a lot of fanfare only to fizzle when money and public support don't materialize.
However if we could suspend reality for a moment and imagine what this could possibly mean and be I see a potentially huge benefit for the climbing community and Squamish.
First of all it could be a nice new gateway to Smoke Bluff Park rather than the current one tucked away on Loggers Lane. This new entrance would more directly tie the downtown to the park. More people would experience and see the park for what is - a unique urban climbing park.
I could see local climbing organizations using the space. We've got the Squamish Access Society, Smoke Bluff Park Advisory Committee and the Climbers Access Society of BC. If they were given real office space rather than having to be run out of climbers basements - they might get the profile they deserve.
I also noticed they were talking about forming a non profit to manage this Centre. This would be a great opportunity for climbers to manage the preservation and promotion of Squamish's climbing resources.
As for training and research, Squamish and Vancouver has produced some world class climbers/athletes eg: Will Stanhope, Jason Kruk, Sean Mcoll and others. So it's possible we could do even better with a dedicated facility.

Those are just some initial thoughts, hopefully I won't get too flamed. What do other people see as the pros and cons of National Climbing Centre.

[Anders Ourom]

It will be interesting to see how this proposal evolves.

Interestingly, a "National Mountain Centre" was proposed for (predictably) the Canmore area a few years ago. I wonder what became of it?
http://www.worldarchitecturenews.com/in ... oad_id=993

[slopr]

http://www.squamishchief.com/article/20 ... /squamish/


I'm sure that the government(taxpayers) would love to throw money at a climbing center right after they finish bailing out the adventure center just down the street. Sounds like another developer cash grab with the good name of climbing in front to disguise it. The proposed site is already infamous for going tits up every time a development proposal is put forward.

[scrubber]

My understanding of it is, when "Redpoint Living" couldn't get off the ground (no pun intended), the developers were left scratching their heads for what could be done with the site. They seem to have put the cart before the horse, as developements often seem to do, and were promoting the housing to be constructed long before the traffic obsticals and zoning had been dealt with.

As the economy has clawed its way back, the issue of developement of this site has been revisited. It appears that the developer is looking for ways to appeal to the community while still keeping the project financially viable. Maybe having some sort of non profit centre built and donated has a huge tax benefit for the developer. Who knows? It's interesting that there is no mention of residential development in the new proposal's headlines. I thought it was still a significant portion of the project. (It must be just off to the side of the artist's rendering of the facility

It would be great to have an alternate gateway to the Little Smoke Bluffs Park, but I would seriously doubt that there would be adequate parking for it to serve that purpose. I don't mean to be cynical, but remember that the developer is attempting to get this thing going after being shut down by city council in the past. They are not creating a "National Climbing Centre" out of the goodness of their hearts. They are proposing it in hopes of making as much money as possible from the balance of the development. (Not a bad thing, just capitalist real estate development.)

Well that's my $0.02

Kris

[squamish climber]

So the Squamish Chief paper published a reaction piece : ‘Climbing centre’ proposal draws mixed reviews it's an interesting read. Kris as you and others have noted this seems like another attempt by the developer to win approval for their property. And as you observed the residential component was left out of the initial press release, it's in this article -- the developer wants to put in 388 townhomes on the 8.3 acre site.

The story notes high density development for the Upper Mamquam Blind Channel is one issue. Another is just what the heck is a National Climbing Centre? Local climber and SAR manager John Howe is quoted saying "I don’t really know what that means and I don’t think the proponents do either.”

A third issue is whether the National Climbing Centre would compete and conflict with the Adventure Centre. I noticed the developer is also proposing a Climbing museum which seems like a natural fit for the Adventure Centre.

I was talking to a climbing shop manager on the weekend. He was also of a very mixed opinion about the proposal. He pointed out that there are already three retailers selling climbing gear in Squamish, do we really need one more. I thought he made a good point that this kind of facility would make better sense for the empty lot across the street from the Adventure Centre.

[squamish climber]

Apparently the developer has shared its plans for a National Climbing Centre with the local MLA and MP and in the hope of obtaining government funding. This is what Kingswood Group company spokesperson, John Moonen told the Straight. Squamish's Stawamus Chief anchors climbing community

[Anonymous climber]

The climbing wall sounds great and all and with all this hype I am surprised that the main point has still not been addressed by the forum and the developers....ACCESS!!
The reason why council voted against Redpoint was the right in, right out concept was not going to fly.
The Kingswood Group pushed hard to get access approved for south bound traffic to go up the steep little road in the back and onto Scott crescent. Not only will this have a huge negative impact on the residents of that street but also add immensely to the already congested traffic at the lights where all the hospital hill and Valley cliff traffic turn onto 99.
The other problem with access is for potential redpoint residents to turn into the development coming from town (the north). There is no turn so they would have to do some contrived turn around at the same intersection i just referred to...that is what they proposed last time at least...which is total crap. Clearly they will turn into KFC and cross the high way to go north as a short cut which again is crap and a major safety concern with head ons!!
This lot has had this problem for decades and I find it amusing that this bribe of the climbing center has everyone missing the point of why they got rejected by council last time around. They have mentioned NOTHING yet about how they are planning to resolve this issue, especially since they have acquired the DeCook property and planning on having even higher capacity than originally.
Lots of questions need to be answered...who will run the climbing wall? How will it be payed for or sustain itself? There is no way the it could operate profitably so who will carry it? The tax payers? The resident? And office space? No guiding agencies could afford rent...they are all run out of offices at home.
Go to the the developers meet and greet on Thursday March 31st at 6:00pm at the Adventure Centre to find out more.

[squamish climber]

Anonymous climber you raise some good points. Vehicle access onto Scott Cresc from the highway does seem lousy. What about pedestrian access? I'm not a local so excuse my ignorance but what about Behrner Dr. the road that goes behind Mamquam Blind Channel? Not that I'm advocating that since it would go by the nice walk and climbs on Blind Channel. It seems to me if this were going to go ahead, the developer should pay the cost for the climbing wall and the national climbing centre -- kind of like development cost charges.

Can you post more info about the meeting this Thursday?

[Anonymous climber]

Its a NOTICE OF PUBLIC INFORMATION MEETING.
A formal presentation by the applicant (Kingwood Group) will begin at 7:00pm.
I spoke with the Planning department and got some good heads up information about the development:
They are applying for between 350-390 units which if they conform to the current downtown parking standard bylaws, would mean the same number of cars, if not more. Planning is unsure how they will manage this. The proposal for access at the moment is to make the Scott Crescent hill in the back a 2 way street with their traffic going down Clark drive to the Lights at 99.
Again, this was rejected last time around so it seems crazy that they are coming back with the same plan but with an increase in number of units.
Also, do not fool yourself to thinking we will get access back to the blind channel road (The Zip, etc...). This is all private property with the exception of a small parcel which is Crown Land (approx. across from Rose Park).
They should go over or under the highway to keep the traffic out of residential streets and from congesting the Valley Cliff/Highway 99 turn off.

[rolfr]

Pretty obvious what is going on here. In exchange for providing a community benefit ( rec center/ climbing center) the developer gets increased zoning density. More condos and tax base in exchange for a shiny new facility.
You who live in the community are the only ones who will have to decide if the trade off is worth it.

[djlassmann]

I am not a climber but I want to say a couple of things for the benefit of climbers who might want to support the climbing centre. Firstly, climbers are "expert" when it comes to knowing what would be of best service to the climbing community. I recommend getting together and presenting a united front. Secondly, the main opposition to the project comes from the outrageous scale of the housing development. A way in and out to the site can be created, apparently, but many Squamish residents see the excessive amount of housing a source for future traffic problems. A down-sized version of the climbing facility and housing development might be something that could actually work for everyone, except perhaps for a few boneheads.

[squamish climber]

So how did the public meeting go last Thursday? By the sounds of it, not very well for the developer.

Attendees oppose Scott Crescent plan
Residents criticize re-worked proposal, call ‘National Climbing Centre’ idea a ‘bribe’
APRIL 4, 2011

MEAGAN ROBERTSON
MROBERTSON@SQUAMISHCHIEF.COM

More than 50 residents arrived at the Kingswood development open house ready to reiterate their feelings from three years ago, which was, “it’s not going to happen.”

The biggest issue was the proposed traffic increase on Scott Crescent.

“I’m disappointed that you haven’t found another traffic solution,” resident Jim Sandford, who openly opposed a similar Kingswood development proposal in 2008, said during the meeting on Thursday (March 31) at the Adventure Centre.

“I’m seeing identical to what I saw five years ago and I’m actually flabbergasted. It’s hard for me to say this because I know you’ve put a lot of time and effort into this, but going up Scott Crescent is not going to happen.

“Make no mistake: It’s not going to happen.”

Those in attendance burst into applause.
read the full articlehere

Seems like access into the site is the biggest issue. Why didn't the developer do something about it during the highway reconstruction a couple of years ago?

I guess the prospect of public access to the Upper Mamquam Blind Channel and a new entrance to Smoke Bluffs Park as well as a waterfront trail and a connection trail to downtown were not enough to dampen concerns about increased traffic and density near Scott Crescent (Hospital Hill).

And residents are not buying the pitch that the National Climbing Centre will be anymore than an indoor climbing wall.

Did anybody else go to the meeting? What happens now?