Flight of the Challenger pin

[Peter]

Apparently the starting pin on Flight of the Challenger blew, resulting in deckage.....should it be replaced with a new pin or bolt or none at all?

[paulc]

Full disclosure, I've been working on getting the sack to lead FotC and was at pet when the pin was pulled yesterday. Good news is the climber walked away. Lucky dude. So I am a bit biased in a couple of ways. That said I think I would always say the below in this case even if the above wasn't true.

My vote would be for a bolt. This pin was replaced last year and failed under a pretty light load (yeah it was a lead fall, but the dude who pulled this was maybe a buck and a quarter soaking wet).

I know you can put a 0 metolius in under the pin location, but then you have to do the 11+ move to get the next piece in, which is a red camalot (read bomber). I wouldn't want to fall on just the 0 TCU that close to the ground (though it is pretty good for a 0 TCU).

This piece is the same deal as the pin that was there. It is the only thing keeping you off the ground if you blow it down low.

Paul

[Brendan]

So if the 0 TCU is good, then a bolt is definitely not needed. If people can't deal with the headspace issue when falling on small gear, they shouldn't be leading this stuff.

A "pretty good" placed 0 TCU is a decent piece to be falling on. I say leave it the way it is or risk someone chopping the bolt (don't worry, it won't be me - I'd probably clip the damn thing if I were leading it)

[5.4 Slayer]

there is a bolt 3 feet or so left of the old pin isn't there? Not a perfect location but it would work in a pinch. Sling it, use it as a back-up to the tcu?

[paulc]

I think if you clip that bolt it is ok, but the rope drag might suck some unless you use a longer draw, which you don't really want right at the ground. Guess you pick the priority here, safety near the ground or drag up higher.

I guess using that bolt depends on people not stripping it everytime it goes up. At least they leave the bolt and just take the hanger and nut. Shouldn't everyone climb with an extra hanger and nut after all?...

Paul

[dakine]

I'd vote for a bolt... if you don't want to use it don't clip and place the 0 but dieing on a route is pretty stupid. I was there when the guy fell he basically landed in between several sharp rocks that would have killed him.

[slopr]

With no pin or bolt it could make FOTC one of the purest all gear climbs in squam, it would be way more challenging on all gear and a tremendous mental effort. Climbs like that are test pieces and when they get altered with bolts often it brings them down a notch, still classic but maybe not the testpiece it once was. A fixed pin is a lot more like trad gear than a bolt is, there are maroon colored ones all over squamish classics - we all clip them all the time (buttress, climb & punishment, etc., etc.)and we all know that they aren't like bolts, and we all know there is a chance of a pin ripping. it is pretty obvious they are not as bomber as bolts and that they have a higher failure rate. Why do we always want to replace them with bolts? In some situations it makes sense but when there is gear, even if its tiny or tough to place on an otherwise entirely gear protected 12c testpiece does it make good sense to throw bolts in the mix? how many 12c's in Squamish are all gear and of that quality with no bolts? Not many, wouldn't it be cool to have some? A bolt seems like a step backwards on a a pure line like the challenger. Besides, the pin scar is probably a yellow alien now . Glad to hear the climber is ok.

[5.4 Slayer]

Besides, the pin scar is probably a yellow alien now . Glad to hear the climber is ok.

Hmmmm, haven't you seen the tests done on aliens? I just threw my one and only alien away last weekend.

[dirty]

"Hmmmm, haven't you seen the tests done on aliens? I just threw my one and only alien away last weekend."

Hi, if you are planning on throwing any more Aliens away, could you contact
me?
Yeah, seen the tests, no good for sure, I'm going to use them for.... uumm...
uuuuuhh... yeah, I'm going to use them for... well for something!

Thanks!

[paulc]

With no pin or bolt it could make FOTC one of the purest all gear climbs in squam, .

I guess it depends on if you want to have a pure trad line or have the same experience as the FAist. At the time of the FA there were fixed pins in place (not just at the bottom, but also in the grove up higher). What about the fixed nuts that are on the line now? Should those be removed every time they get stuck?

Your idealistic perspective is great sitting at home.

And Brendan, you should get off the fence here. You don't want a bolt, but they you would clip it if it were there.

For clarity, the 0 TCU goes in about 8" under the pin (ie you could always get it it), you can't get gear in where the pin was, not even a 00 will fit decently. The main concern with the 0 is that it isn't deep, so looks good, holds weight, but if the crack fractures at all at the lip that piece will pull for sure. I don't actually know if the 0 would have held this fall or not (and I am not going to test that out...)

Paul

[slopr]

My whole point was that pins are not like bolts at all and they should not be interchangeable in every single situation. If a bolt was added to this climb there would be someone hanging off it every time you arrived at pet wall since "sacking up" would not be as big of an issue anymore. Who wants to fall or hang on a pin? No one. Who wants to fall or hang on a bolt? A lot of people. Nobody is forcing anyone to do any climb, it is all personal choice. If you are scared of the potential fall on a trad route rather than bringing the climb down to your level maybe a better ethic would be to wait until you are properly prepared to do the climb. Sometimes this takes years of training & preparation but makes for a far more rewarding experience. Let's be honest- a bolt would make it easier and you can't argue that.

[marc_leclerc]

If someone places I a bolt there I will chop it myself. You could clip the bolt to the left if you so needed anyways.... FLight is an INCREDIBLE gear route, and a fantastic lead on gear. If you are so afraid of falling of that V2 move where the pin was, maybe you shouldn't be on the route in the first place... and if you are scared that the perfectly decent purple TCU will rip then put some pads at the bottom and get a decent spotter.... for goodness sakes don't place a bolt on the best 12c gear lead in Squamish.

[c-plus]

LOL. you guys have got the boy FIRED UP.

[dakine]

wow if one bolt will set everyone off like their nuts were stepped on imagine what would happen if we bolted the whole line??

Personally i still think the bottom should have a bolt like i said if you don't want to clip it no one is forcing you.

[cmoorhead]

Clipping the second bolt of "club flex" with a shoulder length is at almost the same elevation as the pin, isn't difficult to clip and creates no rope drag. There is no need for an additional bolt where the pin was ( it would be about two feet right of the club flex bolt)