Fixed line for Broadway descent?

[slopr]

Here are the reasons I think the line should stay;
- If reinstalled for the long-term, it would provide security to everyone, regardless of ability.
- The large majority of climbers on the Apron are beginner to intermediate.
- Will help reduce the polishing of the rock
- Why the hell not?

At least providing a dummy-proof descent will somehow help reduce polishing of the rock - let's get rid of those gear belays on calculus and st.vitus while we're at it since apparently we're just climbing on some pile next to the highway

[psi4ce]

Just imagine the access possibilities!

Maybe that gondola to the top of the Chief is a good idea after all

[J Mace]

Well it makes no sense to have fixed ropes in the boulder descent and none on the traverse. Both have been done for years with out them so I will take the roeps off the boulder descent trail next time I am up just so we are consistent

[bradley3297]

you done your pissing contest yet....

[gearheart]

I think that any would-be "chopper" needs to respect the style of jjparker in placing the fixed rope - to chop one must clearly approach the task by soloing Vector on a rest day.

Does the fixed rope now go back so that it can be removed in better style?

We often celebrate those who climb a bolted route in better style on gear, and I feel cheated of a possible celebration for the "choppers" work here given the fact that this I fear was a (GASP) "hiker chop".

A terrible ethical dilema. Truly.

Todd

[Tenn]

Gearheart! Post of the thread for sure.

We can not allow the watering down of our experience just because some choppers would walk up the descent trail. Maybe we should chop the descent trail too?

This is getting way out of hand. What's next? A via ferratta to the top of every summit on the chief? Oh wait...

[Dru]

Let's follow in the lead of Burton and Sutton and dynamite Bellygood Ledge

[Chubb Rock]

Lets not bring the apron down to a lower level because a few people get wobbly knees on a grade 4 decent. People can always stay roped up for it. WWJD ?

[supafly]

as a small sidenote to this.. are there two different descents from around diedre.. one that goes via broadway and one that goes down the slab to the side of it?

[Anders Ourom]

Hey, we're trying to have a serious discussion here. Who said joking and fun were allowed? We may even have to convene a meeting of the Little Smoke Bluffs Morals & Ethics Committee.

Todd suggested that because the ropes had been solo-placed, they could only be solo-removed. I was taught that although soloing is something that all climbers do at least sometimes (admittedly, some solo as an end in itself, and some like to pretend they're not soloing), soloing isn't really something that one should talk about in polite society. I will admit to having soloed, even to having soloed climbs on the Apron, but hope it won't get me into some twelve-step program, or generally shunned. I haven't done it lately. Arguably I soloed up there the other week when I removed the ropes. Certainly it was a class 5 approach, both up the slabs and then across the terrifying killer traverse. So perhaps that counts for something. Not quite soloing Vector, but my route was dictated by the need to remove some graffiti, so hopefully I can plead that as a mitigating factor.

And we haven't even yet discussed whether it would be proper to rap-place or rap-remove the ropes. Pretty murky territory.

More seriously, this is the sort of issue where thought and discussion are essential, before any decision is made. It's a complex issue, with significant implications. We have an obligation both to present-day climbers, and to those who will come after us, to look after what we're so fortunate to have. That means inclusive, informed, rational discussions.

The so-called via ferrata is a good example for Squamish climbers of what not to do, and how not to do it. A major new development, significantly affecting the public, not just the climbing community. Well outside the parameters of the recreational climbing strategy for the Chief. Little if any prior discussion, certainly none of any significance, although no doubt a few insiders knew what was happening. And poorly executed, in terms of the standard to which 'real' via ferratas are built - assuming that one is wanted to being with. Not the sort of thing that the climbing community should condone let alone support, however clever it seems. Its removal will take some effort, but seems the wisest thing.

Note: There are two alternate descent routes, For both, you scramble down Broadway from the top of Diedre to a clump of trees, where most climbers start routes on the upper Apron. Maybe 100 m. From there you can continue down Broadway, which involves some fun swinging on cedars and stuff, and in another 50 m or so you're in the forest and on the trail. Alternatively one can go straight down slabs from that point - more or less the upper right side of the Apron as seen from below. It is not a place to take the insecure or a novice without a belay, as although it's simply a matter of carefully walking down with friction, a fall would be fatal. Low angle exposed slabs - buyer/climber beware. It's best to first go down the slabs with someone who's familiar with them, and if you're not comfortable, it's easier to go back up onto the Broadway descent/trail. There's information about this in both current guidebooks - I believe the 1980 guide was so helpful as to mention "Broadway, a tree ledge used to descend into the forest".

[thebigchin]

I'm firmly against any sort of fixed line on Broadway. Sure, the first time down that traverse one stays pretty focused, but it all adds to the adventure. Fixed lines inevitably turn into a manky, crusty mess that aren't to be trusted. They also promote loading them with body weight instead of just using them for protection.

I would not be against a rap anchor to protect it for those who really feel the need.

[Fre]

Rap anchor sounds sensible. Paint it black or whatever color is less intruding, make sure to mention it in every guidebook and that's it.

[psi4ce]

A rap anchor? It's a traverse. You can't really rap a traverse like that!

[Anders Ourom]

A good point - it's something of a diagonal down-traverse. But it's worth looking at whether a carefully-sited rappel anchor would enable a 30 m rappel (1/2 x 60 m) from the top of the scrambling section down into the treed area at the end of Diedre - a few m below the main tree ledge. The rappel would diagonal somewhat, but may be a reasonable proposition. It would be necessary to get up there and measure the distances and angles, and see what works.

[psi4ce]

I'm all for safety but a noob trying to rap-scramble that section is not going to be able to use their hands properly and is probably going to be pretty unstable.

Hypothetically they could be more at risk of accident by losing stability, traction, and control of the rap than if they just scrambled it.

You know concerned people could be better off simply going the other way and rapping into the South Gully or something like that.