Fixed line for Broadway descent?

[sherri]

In the last two weeks, two fixed lines showed up on the exposed traverse off the right side of Broadway ledge.

Just curious as to whether they were part of an official SAS trail upgrade? Or someone's personal project?

[bradley3297]

i seen it and think it takes away from the experience. the traverse isnt scary once you have done it once.

[Anders Ourom]

They must have been placed since August 2nd, when I was last there.

Which part of the descent are the ropes on? The section getting across/down to the top of Diedre, or that from the top of Banana Peel down to the forest? Or both? What are they anchored to? Are they perhaps something temporary, e.g. to help get an injured climber down?

Hopefully those who placed the ropes will admit to what they've done, and their reasons for doing so.

It seems a quite significant change from a very well-established descent, and something that should have been thoroughly discussed before any change was made. It's no secret that the Apron descent involves a bit of exposed scrambling, although few seem to have difficulty with it. Part of the Squamish climbing experience. It's easy to belay those who may be a little unnerved or inexperienced through those spots, and even protect them. (I've done so a few times myself, with novices.) Likewise if it starts raining.

I support removing these ropes, and any related anchors, pending a healthy discussion of this issue.

[eresc]

I'm happy to hear that someone put those fixed lines! Yes, it was easy scrambling, but better safe than sorry, and if you don't like it, just don't use it! Now I can wear my sandals after topping up on the apron and not worry too much for the descent.
Good job!

[sherri]

The traverse has always scared me, but I considered it part of the overall experience. I think I was even getting a little more confident on it w/each crossing.

The fixed line makes it look safe, but I'm not so sure it really makes it safe. For someone who truly is freaked out there, roping up would still be the better option, but perhaps they'd be less likely to do so now that it looks "safe."

[Anders Ourom]

It will be interesting to see how long the ropes last. Not very long, I'd guess.

The placement of the ropes, and the lack of prior community consultation, seems likely to be quite controversial. There's no one body or person that decides such things, and we have the privilege of largely policing ourselves. Although a few seem to believe otherwise, that doesn't mean climbers can do whatever we want in the park - the more that issues of this sort arise, and are not pro-actively addressed within the climbing community, the more likely it is that BC Parks might become involved.

Sandals may not be the most appropriate footwear for Apron approaches, let alone the descent.

[t2climb]

I will be removing them tomorrow if someone else has not already done so. The ropes are completely not needed. How long have people been using that descent? 30+ years? If you can not handle the descent then rope up and if you can't do that then stay home.

[Anders Ourom]

The first descent of Broadway from the area at the top of Slab Alley must have been by Tony Cousins and Jim Baldwin, when they did the FA of Slab Alley in 1961. (The first route on the Apron - more on that later.) Snake was done in 1962 by Dick Willmott and Pete Botta (sp?), and presumably they discovered the Baldwin Ledge, and the full Broadway descent.

There were more shrubs and such in the two scrambly areas when I first did the descent in 1973, with Eric. Over time, some have been removed or been eroded out. I asked Eric if we were supposed to be roped up, and he said no.

Bear in mind that this may be a troll - if so, a clever one, in that there has been talk of installing such ropes, primarily by commercial interests. Heaven knows if we need hikers and sightseers on Broadway, though.

[avit]

Bear in mind that this may be a troll - if so, a clever one, in that there has been talk of installing such ropes, primarily by commercial interests. Heaven knows if we need hikers and sightseers on Broadway, though.

Not a troll, the ropes were there Monday.

I'm ambivalent about their presence, but I think the upper rope was tied to a smallish tree (smaller than I'd choose for a bona-fide fixed rope in a high-traffic area).

The Bellygood trail has fixed ropes, and that spot is less exposed & less frequented, so who decides which ones stay & which ones go?

[bradley3297]

ive worn sandals on every exposed apron traverse and the slab descent.

[psi4ce]

Every once in a while fixed ropes appear somewhere or other and then most people seem to unquestioningly yard on them like there is no tomorrow.

If fixed ropes ever protect class 4 terrain, like that no-fall zone on Broadway just North of the Diedre platform, they need to be bomb-proof. Especially in high-traffic zones it is just a matter of time before the ropes wear out, someone yards too hard, and they go for the big one.

I believe you are better off trusting to your own devices in such terrain. Just solo it if you are comfortable or get a proper belay with pro in if you are not.

Or, install proper via ferrata equipment like bolted chains and ladders. Which is hopefully not going to happen on Broadway, ever!

Nevertheless those fixed ropes on Broadway have got to go.

[sherri]

Bear in mind that this may be a troll - if so, a clever one, .

Actually, it wouldn't have been clever at all given the likelihood of another poster having been up there within the past 24hrs to see them with their own eyeballs.

It was a genuine inquiry about the fixed line's source. I've noticed a lot of approach upgrades etc over the summer, most of them well-engineered and appropriate, and credited them to the Squamish Access Society's hard work. This one didn't seem to fit that M.O. on either criteria.

[slopr]

This can't be for real, you guys must be jokin right? Wow - is there tickmarks for what footholds to use while on the fixed line too?

[Dru]

A couple years ago somebody fixed a rope on the traverse from Boomerang down to Diedre, and I think placed a bolt too. They lasted less than a week?

[avit]

This can't be for real, you guys must be jokin right? Wow - is there tickmarks for what footholds to use while on the fixed line too?

Don't feel all proud for third-classing it your whole life, try to be pragmatic for the community... There's certainly enough criteria to warrant some genuine protection here to speed things up, despite how easy & solid it feels:

1. No viable alternative exit
2. Serious fall consequences
3. Lots of traffic
4. High noob ratio, from easy routes leading up to Broadway

But I go both ways on this, there are good arguments against:

1. The character-building experience
2. A belay option is available
3. Chains/ropes could draw in sneaker-shod tourons like flies (unlikely here, given they'd have to hike up the rough descent trail in the forest)
4. BC Parks?

Personally I don't care if the ropes are there for myself, but if they're to stay I agree with Sherri, it needs to be better thought out. Either way, the rope attachment isn't permanent, it's just around trees, so it's just a matter of cutting it and hauling out some well-meaning person's trash.

I believe you are better off trusting to your own devices in such terrain. Just solo it if you are comfortable or get a proper belay with pro in if you are not.

Totally. I was up there with my daughter on Monday (hello Sherri from Washington, Isabelle says hi!), and we gave her a hip belay on the way down. As the last person, I tried using the ropes for support, but in retrospect they were anti-helpful.

What's it like in the rain? I've never had the privilege of coming up the North Apron in "seasonal conditions"...