anyone catch dave macleod the other night?
anyone catch dave macleod the other night?
anybody catch the dave macleod at the sunday festival thing?.......i was wondering how people feel about the headpointing ethic etc......would locals here just put a bolt in in order to "make it accessible for all" or "up their game" so to speak......how does the squamish community feel about this ethical approach/style?
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bradley3297
- Senior Member
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:51 am
- Location: squamish
LOL aren't you a funny guy...EnigmaM wrote:hahaha i'm sure he's thrilled you busted him on TR on your camera phone.
first of all he's RAPPELLING down, and second, it's a digital SLR... and lighting sucks in the forest there so it's super hard to get a shot w/out noise when shooting w/out a tripod. but you wouldn't know that cause you still use point and shoot film cameras and Lucky biners.
oh, and i didn't take the photo.
but why place the bolts if it is protectable traditionally? Just because you aren't up to the level of the climb doesn't mean it should be "dummed down" - this goes for all FA's; just because you got to the rock first doesn't mean you own it and can do whatever you want to it. Climbing is an activity that has become, especially in Squamish due to Vancouver's proximity, an athletic gymnastic endeavour rather than the search for adventure, and rampant over-bolting ain't gonna stop
I'm no superhero climber either - there are a lot more routes in Squamish that I wish I could do than there are those I can do. Much of the appeal and excitement comes from building to those routes, the pride and accomplishment in training and progressing, and finally ticking climbs at new grades I've drooled over for years.
Headpointing seems like a way to progress the game without taking those amazing lines away from new generations of climbers, who may onsight them one day. It seems like there must be an upper limit on the physical strength of climbers, but as the population of climbers grow, there is a larger pool to draw the strongest from. Gear advancements will also help. Ever heard about, decades ago, when it was scientifically proven that it was impossible for a man to run a mile in under 4 minutes, using lung capacity and ablility to transfer O2 to muscles, muscle mass, stride length, caloric burn etc. ? Now it happens every day...
What if Cobra Crack had seen bolts 5 years ago?
Now there would be an ugly line of chopped round heads marring the otherwise flawless rock surrounding the splitter
too much coffee
I'm no superhero climber either - there are a lot more routes in Squamish that I wish I could do than there are those I can do. Much of the appeal and excitement comes from building to those routes, the pride and accomplishment in training and progressing, and finally ticking climbs at new grades I've drooled over for years.
Headpointing seems like a way to progress the game without taking those amazing lines away from new generations of climbers, who may onsight them one day. It seems like there must be an upper limit on the physical strength of climbers, but as the population of climbers grow, there is a larger pool to draw the strongest from. Gear advancements will also help. Ever heard about, decades ago, when it was scientifically proven that it was impossible for a man to run a mile in under 4 minutes, using lung capacity and ablility to transfer O2 to muscles, muscle mass, stride length, caloric burn etc. ? Now it happens every day...
What if Cobra Crack had seen bolts 5 years ago?
Now there would be an ugly line of chopped round heads marring the otherwise flawless rock surrounding the splitter
too much coffee
Cobra crack is C2 and would never see bolts. I would guess that it's pretty well protected.
Traditional climbing is ground up, not just placing clean pro. Most of the headpoints are face or arete climbing with the occasional seam that will take an RP or a micro-cam. The moves as well as the gear is worked out from toprope. Red point attempts often have stacks of crash pads underneath. Might as well go to Matt Madoloni's crash net or a stack of boxes like the stunt people use and go without the rope.
The thing I don't like about headpointing is that nobody will ever onsight most of those routes. They will always be toproped first or at the very least the climber will have to be told how to protect it which denies the onsight (which in a way holds true for sport climbing). It's a different game. Somebody should add a section to "The games climbers play".
If they ever invent something that can protect these climbs safely and be removed it will make all bolts obsolete. It's pretty easy to hide a chopped bolt if done properly (so I've read at least).
There's room for bolting and a place for headpointing but neither is better than the other IMO (unless you are completely against bolts).
Traditional climbing is ground up, not just placing clean pro. Most of the headpoints are face or arete climbing with the occasional seam that will take an RP or a micro-cam. The moves as well as the gear is worked out from toprope. Red point attempts often have stacks of crash pads underneath. Might as well go to Matt Madoloni's crash net or a stack of boxes like the stunt people use and go without the rope.
The thing I don't like about headpointing is that nobody will ever onsight most of those routes. They will always be toproped first or at the very least the climber will have to be told how to protect it which denies the onsight (which in a way holds true for sport climbing). It's a different game. Somebody should add a section to "The games climbers play".
If they ever invent something that can protect these climbs safely and be removed it will make all bolts obsolete. It's pretty easy to hide a chopped bolt if done properly (so I've read at least).
There's room for bolting and a place for headpointing but neither is better than the other IMO (unless you are completely against bolts).
Headpointing doesn't prevent onsights. Far from it. Cobra Crack was headpointed but it's a pure crack line. In a decade or so when solid 5.14 trad ascents are commonplace, someone WILL onsight it.
The guys who have climbed it to date, though, have realized they have no chance of onsighting it, and have elected to work it as a headpoint only because that is a more efficient method than the ground-up. I mean if you know you are gonna take 90 or 100 falls before you even link the thing why not do that on top-rope with a shunt or minitraxion or something just to save some belayer the tedium of catching all those falls?
Look at the UK. Most of the E5s and E6s and E7s were established as headpoints in the 70s 80s and 90s. Now those lines are getting done ground nd-up and onsight and the headpoint grade is up around E10 and E11.
To me, both headpoint and ground-up/onsight attempts are trad, and if it reduces the number of bolts placed, that is a good thing.
The guys who have climbed it to date, though, have realized they have no chance of onsighting it, and have elected to work it as a headpoint only because that is a more efficient method than the ground-up. I mean if you know you are gonna take 90 or 100 falls before you even link the thing why not do that on top-rope with a shunt or minitraxion or something just to save some belayer the tedium of catching all those falls?
Look at the UK. Most of the E5s and E6s and E7s were established as headpoints in the 70s 80s and 90s. Now those lines are getting done ground nd-up and onsight and the headpoint grade is up around E10 and E11.
To me, both headpoint and ground-up/onsight attempts are trad, and if it reduces the number of bolts placed, that is a good thing.
)
thos interested might want to check out daves latest ascent in scotland - he rates it as harder than "rhapsody", the route sonnie trotter recently repeated.
http://www.davemacleod.blogspot.com/
http://www.davemacleod.blogspot.com/
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