Staples of the Gluten Intolerant (10 b/c?). Sport. (7 bolts) - 24m. Chris Small, Kevin Henshaw. March 24, 2012. Partially follows line of previously chopped staples (first three bolts). Starts directly right of Zoe going up a dihedral for 4 m before diverging left up a steep vertical face which leads into a technical shallow corner and finishing through a series of right slanting ledges. Probably equal in quality to Zoe but needs onsight consensus on the grade and quality rating.
In the Firing Line (10 b/c?). Mixed. 3 bolts - gear to 1" (doubles of 1" and 0.3" required) 26m. Chris Small, Kevin Henshaw. March 25, 2012. Proceeds up shallow right facing dihedral to a series of two small roofs which is then followed by short stretch of steep technical face climbing and finishing on series of right slanting ledges. Again probably close to Zoe in quality but again needs a consensus onsight grade.
The bottom corner of In the Firing Line is still a bit dirty. I was pushing a lot of mud cleaning the bottom corner. I hope to have it fully ready in the next week especially if we get a big dump of rain.
@ Rolf: Staples follows what was the first three bolts of the chopped line, from which it diverges left independently.
The staple scars are pretty severe, can anyone who knows how to patch up granite take some glue with them next time you go?
(Or tell me how to do it so I can?)
i am posting this publicly and not messaging you directly because the climbing community need to be aware and take part in discussion.
if i had my camera i would have photographed the prim and proud shiny new bolt like a bloated privileged teenager, standing right next to the dependable workhorse of a purple camalot buried into a crack, its lobes snug and tight. a sad and needless thing.
sorry about this rather vulgar public stance on these silly ethics i am trumpeting chris, but y'know, those bolts are crass and detract from a very worthwhile and well cleaned route.
I think you raised this issue in a thoughtful and respectful way... which is a rarity when it comes to bolt issues. When it comes to protection, I tend to be rather liberal. That said, I do think that there is such a thing as too many bolts. To anyone thinking of placing a bolt, I urge you to spend a good 5 minutes thinking hard about it first. Is it needed? Is there good gear nearby? Can a short climber clip it from a stance? Etc. Think thrice, drill once (or not at all).
1) The rest of the routes in the immediate vicinity have been developed as sport routes despite having ample gear. I have climbed Zoe primarily with trad gear bypassing the majority of the bolts especially through top overhang. Yet in all times I have climbed at the Zoe wall I have never seen anyone else place trad gear on it or complain about the bolts on it. This indicated to us an prevailing acceptance that the Zoe cliff is a "sport cliff". In fact this ethic seems prevalent in much of Murrin Park with areas that were climbed traditionally originally being retrobolted - ie). Pleasant Pheasant, No Name Road. I have not heard anyone advocating chopping Pleasant Pheasant.
2) One of our primary reasons of developing these routes was to provide a second and third option "moderate" grade route to alleviate the congestion on Zoe, which seems to be utilized by many moderate sport climbers as a break through route to leading in the 10s or as a "warm - up" route for those who are more hardcore heading to the Pet or elsewhere.
3) And finally in the twenty plus years I have climbed in primarily North American locales I have noticed that while trad climbers will readily clip the occasional bolt, sport climbers tend to be averse to making one or two gear placements. I don't know if this has resulted from the increased "specialization" of the climbing community into sub-genres or is just a societal shift from generalist skill set development. Anyway, whatever the cause, I have noticed mixed "sport plus" routes having one or two placement seem to lack popularity and are disused and consequently quickly return to a natural vegetated state. I have had vigourous debates with numerous climbing friends and foes on the subject of sport + routes and the majority consensus seems to advocate bolting where only one or two placements exist. In fact in the majority of routes I have developed I have taken the harder traditionalist line and been harshly criticized for it.
Route development takes crap loads of hard labour (especially in Squamish) and cash. Because of this, I would rather have my efforts climbed and enjoyed versus rapidly languishing into natural jungle-ness. I also consider route development as a mechanism to give back to the community and activity I have enjoyed for most of my adult life. I derive great satisfaction in having people enjoy climbing the routes I have established. I also find a highly creative element in new route development and consider my routes like pieces of "art" I am uncovering and taking public. I would liken it to the graffiti artists/vandals (depending on your perspective and taste) painting every conceivable surface in this town to publicly show their "art" instead of it moldering away in someone's home or a dusty gallery. There seems to be a myriad of tastes in art also.
Anyway, this was our route development rationale. I am interested to hear other opinions beyond Stew and Jer's on the subject of gear and sport plus routes.
For me, sport climbing is at home on the crags. Crags are recreational. It's where you go to play/practice because standing at the summit of Zoe wall isn't exactly a goal. Trad, in my mind, was always the "real thing". It's what you do when you want to climb real mountains in the wilderness, not developed routes.
On the other hand, you can't go bolt happy all over Squish. The chief is the closest thing to an alpine climb and should remain a trad mecca, as should a few other multipitch routes in the area. Overbolting is a concern where a rock face is also enjoyed by non-climbers ... hikers, kayakers, tourists etc. Nobody likes seeing shiny industrial looking hardware all over a naturally beautiful mountain or canyon.
There is a balance to be struck. If smallman says Zoe is a "sport cliff", then bolting isn't going against the spirit of the area.
i think your reasons for drilling those bolts are mostly sound and i agree about zoe, pleasant pheasant and the dozens of other routes that could be done on gear but are bolted, resulting in traffic (and congestion)so it's a bit daft singling your two bolts out. but, i think route developers need to think less about wrapping their routes in cotton wool, to encourage ascents.
the more cracks that are bolted, the more this becomes the prevailing style, the more the public will shy away from placing some gear.
chris, i know what your saying. but my vote is chop those top two. ok, that's the end of my talking head, it could just keep going on and on. stewart
Yes, you absolutely can and should apply that rule whenever possible. The cost of buying a trad rack should never be a consideration when placing bolts. That is ridiculous.timelessbeing wrote:It's a difficult decision, and I think every bluff needs individual consideration. You can't apply the rule "only bolt if there's no natural pro" everywhere, because you'll restrict all those who can't afford to buy a $1K+ rack to slab.
Climbing is not a right and does not need to be 'protected' for those who can afford a $200 rope, another $200 in draws, $150 shoes, $100 harness, chalk, etc etc. but not another $200 in various nuts and stoppers.
Slab climbing is far from the only option for sport climbers. Go to Chek and have a look around. Go to the Red River Gorge, or Smith, or Rifle. Sport climbs exist in abundance in areas that have a traditional ethic.
Should be encourage building lifts and gondolas into the backcountry to 'support' those who can afford to buy skis, boots, etc. but not AT skis and boots?
This argument is one of my pet peeves and I hope that it continues to get shot down as it has for decades now.
There are other arguments presented here and in other places for placing bolts near gear placements and those should be discussed on their own merits. Jeremy's work on Wire Tap is a great example.
However, in my opinion, if the crack next to the bolts discussed here holds solid placements .. the bolts should not have been placed. I put the 'if' in there because I have not yet climbed this route. I have a reason to do so now, though.
This is my second least-favorite argument. Please see Supertopo and rc.com for about 80 million conversations explaining why you're wrong.In contrast, bolting is not discriminatory because trad still remains an option.
How wonderfully selfish and short-sighted of you.For me, sport climbing is at home on the crags. Crags are recreational. It's where you go to play/practice because standing at the summit of Zoe wall isn't exactly a goal. Trad, in my mind, was always the "real thing". It's what you do when you want to climb real mountains in the wilderness, not developed routes.
I recommend you go hop on a classic single-pitch trad lead like High Mountain Woody and come back here to tell us about your experience.
...The chief is the closest thing to an alpine climb
Oddly, no one notices those bolts unless they are pointed out to them.Overbolting is a concern where a rock face is also enjoyed by non-climbers ... hikers, kayakers, tourists etc. Nobody likes seeing shiny industrial looking hardware all over a naturally beautiful mountain or canyon.
The balance exists. If natural protection exists, use it. This has been the ethic in Squamish for decades and it should remain.There is a balance to be struck. If smallman says Zoe is a "sport cliff", then bolting isn't going against the spirit of the area.
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