Genesis Wall - Murrin Park

[Optimally-Primed]

I received word from Hamish Mutch, the first ascentionist of Genesis, indicating that he would prefer to let the active Squamish climbing community decide the fate of existing climbs. In the case of Genesis, he is fine with letting me decide.

At this time, I think I'll leave it as is.

Another note: the first bolt is now installed on Original Thin. The route is complete. Enjoy the clips!

Someone suggested a direct start to Original Thin. I've checked out the moves... some thin finger work, maybe 10c or 10d. It'd require 1 more bolt, I think. There are already a healthy number of bolts on the crag. Any suggestions either way? Direct start option? Or leave it as-is?

Jeremy

[Optimally-Primed]

Hamish's email, FYI.
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thanks for the update. things have certainly changed. there were no trees of any size in 1962. i am surprised that this face has been neglected, as it is in murrin park, and has about a one minute approach. thanks for cleaning it up.

clearly i am out of the current squamish picture, and cannot fairly comment on what should happen there. i am still fairly active, and have a penchant for rap-bolting sport routes. as a result of that, i am certainly not opposed to the use of bolts today. a 10a route should be a pleasant experience, not a life or limb-threatening one. if there is a bolt at the crux, i might even put this climb on my list, for the next time that i am in squamish. just don't change the name!

my position is that the current squamish climbers should make this decision, not me, based i suppose on what has been said in this thread. whatever you decide is fine with me. incidentally neither of those pins belonged to us. we never left fixed pins, unless we had pounded the heads off first, which was rare.

this thread has also discussed the correct spelling of genecide, or geneside, and also mentioned a route now known as sentry box. the 'correct' spelling of the new route does not concern me, but i would like to point out that sentry box is not the correct name for this climb, which was named 'artificial land' by the FAists, baldwin and cooper. i have the original squamish guide, hand-written by jim baldwin, and artificial land is climb #18, rated as 6.4 somehow woodsworth screwed this up in his guide. aid climbing was also known as artificial climbing, back then, hence the name. it would be nice to see this long-standing error corrected in the next guide, but i am not optimistic. the name given by the FAists should always be respected.

cheers Hamish

[Paddy]

Nice job on cleaning Genesis wall...

Have been there a few times already....with pitons and bolts installed and without....(with or without the bolts and pitons) it's still a great crag and thanks for all of your work....

What is the name and grade of the route between the Original Thin and Cain and Abel?

Great route and fun mantel!

Cheers

[paulc]

Hi Jer;

Good to see you the other day at the bluffs.

Since you asked. My vote would be to not add the additional bolt for the direct start. As you say, there are a bunch of bolts, I don't see the need for another one. Perhaps leave as a TR if people want?

Question: sup with the trees there? the whole crag is much more open to sunlight (which is good, since it was a bit dark there before). Was that the park service?

Cheers

P

[Optimally-Primed]

Paddy, between Original Thin and Cain & Able is a direct start possibility to Original Thin (about 10c/d). I considered it as the line or as an alternative but decided on where it is now (the easier start). I think there are enough bolts on this crag as it is... But you may be referring to the arete between Cain & Able and Geneside. I cleaned it up and sussed the moves. But it's such a little amount of climbing independent from Cain & Able that I decided to let folks climb it and call it a variation to Cain & Able... no need for a squeeze job here.

paulc, good to see you too. I'm with you on the direct start possibility (no bolt).

[Tenn]

Interesting that Baldwin and Cooper actually named the line of "Sentry Box " as "Artificial Land". Given their influence on early Squamish climbing and the fact that Hamish has this in writing in the ORIGINAL Squamish guide book, I would agree that this error should be corrected.

[Dru]

There's a long tradition that the FFA party gets to rename former aid routes as free routes, so if it was freed as Sentry Box, then Sentry Box it is now.

[raingod]

Hey Jer
I've always enjoyed those climbs.
Thanks for your hard work
Ron

[Optimally-Primed]

News on Genesis Crag:

1. The bolt on Genesis was chopped recently. If anyone knows who did it, please contact me and let me know. The climb is currently a fairly serious lead for a 10a leader, with ledgefall potential at the crux.

2. I find this forum to be an unproductive place for discussion/debate on such matters. In the end, these "bolt wars" hurt the community as a whole. So I will not participate or respond to any debate over the chopped bolt here. I find face-to-face discussions to be more productive.

3. There's a new line of bolts on rock that I cleaned, squeezed in between Original Thin and Cain & Able. Anyone know who did the drilling or anything about the route?

4. The crag seems to be quite popular these days. I'm happy to see that folks are enjoying themselves. That sense of "value added" was what all my work was aimed at. I'm glad it seems to be working out.

Jeremy

[Anders Ourom]

(Missed this earlier.)

Dru: There's a long tradition that the FFA party gets to rename former aid routes as free routes, so if it was freed as Sentry Box, then Sentry Box it is now.

There's no such tradition of renaming that I know of, at least not at Squamish. The 'renaming' of what is now called Sentry Box was through inadvertence. Baldwin & Cooper named it Artificial Land, and it is so called in Baldwin's 1962 guide. It was called Sentry Box in Glenn's 1967 guidebook. I don't know why, and will ask Glenn. (There is something of a 'bottomless box' shape half way up, formed by the overhangs.) Sentry Box became the name that was used, repeated in the 1975 and 1980 guidebooks. We all called it Sentry Box during the 1970s - no one knew any better. Eric didn't "rename" it - it kept the name he thought it had, when he freed it in 1976. (Probably the second 5.12 in Canada - the left side of the Split Pillar, freed by visiting Australian Nic Taylor in autumn 1975, was the first.)

When I was writing the 1980 guidebook, Hamish Mutch corrected me on the name. After some thought, I decided to stay with Sentry Box, with the note "(originally called Artificial Land)" in the description. Hard to change the usage now, perhaps, after 40+ years.

It will be interesting to see if the attempted renamings of Crap Crags ("Europa") and of Black Bugs Blood ("One Scoop for Delicious Dimples") catch on. Over 80% of BBB and OSDD coincide - the latter is a cleaned-up version of the former, with many added bolts. To add to the confusion, the lower half of BBB roughly coincides with Slim Pickins.

It's important to keep track of such things.

As for the bolt on Genesis, I hope whoever removed it has the courage of his convictions and will identify himself, and tell us why. The addition of the bolt may have been debatable, but removing it anonymously is counter-productive for everyone. I've removed very few bolts, and have always done so quite publicly. It's sometimes necessary, but unless its accompanied by public debate, no one learns anything.

Simon Tooley and I walked by Genesis on our way home one afternoon, I think on August 1st (or 3rd?). We'd done the climb once or twice together, and wanted to have a look. The cliff is certainly more open and cleaner than it was, with more climbing potential. So credit to Jeremy and friends for their work. The bolt on Genesis was in place then - we talked about it, and weren't sure whether it added to the route. I haven't been back since.

There was a lengthy debate on the Gripped forum a few years ago, regarding the lack of fixed anchors at the top of Penny Lane. With patience, it turned into a productive discussion involving many climbers. The main discussion is at http://gripped.com/forum/?wpforumaction ... t=14426.78, and the conclusion at http://gripped.com/forum/?wpforumaction ... &t=16936.0

[Anders Ourom]

The Penny Lane fixed anchor discussion is at http://gripped.com/forum/?wpforumaction ... &t=14426.0 The URL I posted earlier no longer works, so I 'bumped' that thread on the Gripped forum so it has an active URL. (Now on the front page there.) Hopefully it will work this time It's simply an example of the sort of relatively constructive discussions that are possible with forums. Many people viewed the thread, so it was apparently of some interest. Not everyone has even heard about let alone participates in on-line forums, but it's one way to discuss these matters.

[Dru]

Anders,

Here's a list of some renamed after FFA routes just from Squamish for you:

Archives (was West Face of 11 Bolt Rock)

DOA (was Mouthful of Dead Eels)

Fungus Razor (was Trapeze)

Pinup (was Papoose Two)

Loggers Are People Too (was Hot Licks)

Zombie Roof (was Rat Burger)

There are lots more... it's a long established tradition in Britain and the US too.

[Anders Ourom]

There have undoubtedly been attempts to rename routes at Squamish after they were freed. Not often, and usually routes that have had few ascents, none recent. For the vast majority of routes that have been freed at Squamish, there was no suggestion of renaming. Even routes that had long fallen into obscurity, or had only one ascent.

The toponymy of climbing routes is an interesting subject, with history and the character of the climbers underlying. It's the sort of thing that it's important for guidebook writers to get correct. (Mea culpa!) That is, who did what, where, when and how, and what it was called.

Sometimes routes have several potential names, which are bandied about before it's decided. An example is Hypertension at Nightmare Rock, which Dave sometimes called Les Fleurs de Mal (Baudelaire), and was also called Nightmare Crack. Another example (not Squamish) is in the movie Luxury Liner, about the first ascent of Supercrack in Moab in 1976. Earl Wiggins led it and wanted to call it Luxury Liner, but somehow got stuck with Supercrack. (Not to be confused with the one in the Shawangunks.)

There's something of a community consensus involved in such things. But in my view, it's common courtesy to discuss the proposed renaming with those who did the first ascent (if possible), and in the community - except for the very few utterly obscure routes. Helps keep things clear.

[pinner]

I would think that both "Europa" and" One Scoop with Delicious Dimples" will indeed take over, and largely have already. In large part due to the number of new and visiting climbers compared to longtime locals (or at least those long-familiar with the area).

I've never done either Black Bugs Blood or One Scoop, but am aware of both through reading the McLane guide. Personally, being something of an esoterist, I am just as likely to climb either, but I assume most climbers would read the start of the description of BBB - "A climb largely superceded by, and in part bolted over by, One Scoop..." - and opt for the latter. I would assume BBB is not in Squamish Select, is One Scoop?

And as for Europa, the high profile of the cleaning debate, the presence of the route's description on the VOC website (a club through which many young climbers start off), the completely grown over state of Crap Crags, and Hamish's blessing of the new name/"new" line would all seem to guarantee =the use of the new name.

I would like to think that those in the know will be telling their seconds for decades that "this was first climbed back in the 1800's, it was an old line this guy Hamish put up - he was 7'4" and 380 pounds! - called Crap Crags. He ripped out most of the cedars by slinging them and then jumping off from a couple meters up. Sometimes he had to carry rocks with him when he jumped for the real big ones! I hear his belayer was never seen again after that night..."

[pinner]

with apologies to Dick Culbert!