Simpson - Strong Tie Bolts - Warning

[Squamishmonkey]

Hi Guys,
I recently ordered bolts at Triton in Squamish and specified, 3/8 by 3" SS wedge bolts but did not specify from which supplier. When I went to pick up the order they were manufactured by Simpson Strong Tie.
I decided to check their strength rating before purchasing, the Triton staff told me he had recently sold 100 of these to a local climber.
The Shear strength of the bolts they were trying to sell me were: 1215 lbs or 5.4kn -(From their website)

I re-ordered the bolts from Hiliti - Approx: 5400 or 19.9kn

Here is the standard the uiaa uses:
20kn - http://theuiaa.org/upload_area/cert_fil ... h_2009.pdf

Here is another companies test: http://www.confast.com/products/technic ... nchor.aspx
Also 5400lbs which is around 20kn

Quote from the American Safe Climbing Association.
It is easy to botch a wedgebolt purchase, however. We tested seven different brands and found that while some can hold up to 4000 pounds in hard granite, others are pitifully weak or are of erratic quality, and can break at as little as 1500 pounds. Compounding the problem, one wedge bolt looks like the next. If you use wedge bolts, the only way to make sure you know what you're getting is to insist on a sealed box or package. Avoid getting wedge bolts out of a bin where they can be mislabeled, or not labeled at all.
The strongest and most dependable wedge bolts are, in descending order of reliability, the Petzl , Hilti, Ramset/Red Head (also known as Phillips), Rawl, and WedgeIt. In hard rock the Petzl outdid all other wedge anchors by a long shot, proving stronger than the Petzl Coeur bolt hanger. The worst wedge bolts, the ones that can break at only 1500 pounds, are the USE, Star, and "generic" ones.

Thanks
Eric

[scrubber]

Wow, that's unfortunate. Especially as they are a Hilti dealer. I have checked their prices on Hilti bits and bolts before, and they can't even meet the prices that MEC sells the Hilti ones for. They said they could if someone ordered the same quantity as MEC does!

While I agree that those Simpson Strong-tie bolts are not of the same quality as those from Petzl, or Hilti, bear in mind that the strength ratings printed on the box may be based on different safety factors. For example, one company may give you X pounds as there "breaking strength" which is composed of an average actual breaking load from a certain number of units, while another company may give a far lower number based on either halving the actual average breaking strength, or subtracting a multiple of the average deviation between failure loads. This may be simply to cover their asses because of how random their quality is, or they may be trying to ensure it isn't used anywhere close to it's actual breaking strength.

There are thousands of those Simpson bolts around Squamish, as it was the brand that was usually sold from Climb On. We've yet to see any 3/8" stainless steel bolt failures in Squamish to my knowledge.

While grade 304 stainless steel bolts can be purchased for less than MEC sells the Hilti ones for, you will likely never find that quality of bolt for a better price unless you work as an industrial fastener supplier.

Kris

[Squamishmonkey]

Hi Kris,
I agree, the safety factors on the Strong tie is a multiple of 4, Hilti has reduction ratio of 0.65.
and I agree with your reasons why, random quality, covering their asses etc
This reduction of ratings makes finding a true comparison difficult, but the ASCA is right in that as brands change the ratings follow.

I also considered the fact that no failures have been reported, then decided rather than relying on that, I would do due diligence (Which is why MEC stocks the Hilti ones?) and find out what the standard is and who best meets it.

The prices however were better than MEC. Triton was $2.25 per bolt plus tax for the Hilti while MEC is $2.70 per bolt (I ordered 50 and split the box)

The Strong Tie ones were $1.60 per bolt plus tax.
I'm okay with paying the extra to have peace of mind, I'm usually the first one falling on them!

[BK]

Eric - thanks for pointing this out!

I can't add anything other than a strong recommendation to throw away all Simpson tie brand bolts and to personally be aware of the product I am buying. There is no excuse for knowingly placing fixed gear that rates so far below the minimum standard or 20 kn. I've placed some bunk in the past as have most of us - we don't want to go back to that era.

[scrubber]

The reason that MEC has stuck with the Hilti 3/8" bolt is simply because of it's high standard of quality, price, and that it just meets the UIAA strength standard for anchors. Going on the history that virtually no Hilti bolt failures under proper installation conditions and usage have occurred, MEC opted to stick with the 3/8" (approx 9.5mm) bolt instead of go to the European standard of 10mm. To bring in the 10mm bolts from either Hilti, Petzl, or another reputable manufacturer would mean the cost would pretty much double, or more.

We all know what would happen if MEC's bolt price doubled: Almost every one of us cheap bastards would go to the nearest supplier of stainless wedge anchors of uncertain origin and order a box. MEC therefor made the decision to continue to offer what has become the North American standard for hard rock wedge anchors, by the most reputable manufacturer, even though they just toe the line on the maximum breaking strength rating.

If it makes you uncomfortable, start putting in mega strong 1/2" bolts (12.7mm)

Kris

[tsouth]

Interesting read thanks for pointing these things out! Especially in time for the cleaning season.

[Peter]

I called Simpson and talked to one of their engineers after Eric brought this up. The shear strength numbers that Eric is using are after a factor of 4, at least. So the breaking strength is in fact meeting the standard of 20kn. Yes the Hilti are better in certain aspects, but as Kris quite rightly points out, we could always use 1/2 inchers and be extra safe. I have used the Simpson for years without problems....

[rolfr]

The off shore manufactured argument isn't really relevant, since Hilti manufactures it's wedge anchors in China and also in Mexico.

I have a business account with Hilti, just spoke with a Hilti representative for Canada, 304 SS wedge anchour material is sourced and manufactured in Mexico.

I am looking at UCAN bolts that have equal specs to Hilti, at $119.00 for 100 from BC Fasteners.

Comments?

[carlsonmark]

I am looking at UCAN bolts that have equal specs to Hilti, at $119.00 for 100 from BC Fasteners.

Comments?

The UCAN ISS 383 bolts are used by a few developers in the Bow Valley. I have placed some myself in limestone, quartzite and some sort of rock near quartzite that seems like hard sandstone.

One thing to note: The UCAN 3/8 bolts have an installation torque of 30 ft. lbs., and the Hilti KB3 bolts have an installation torque of 20 ft. lbs. For the UCAN bolts, I can speak from experience, do not over torque them even a little bit! The threads will break and you will have a hell of a time getting the nut off.

Hilti bolts have better specs overall. Find installation torque, minimum edge spacing, and minimum distance spacing information here:
Hilti KB3 Technical Guide: https://www.hilti.ca/medias/sys_master/ ... PC_RAW.pdf

UCAN Wedge Anchor Technical Manual: http://www.ucanfast.com/pdfs/datasheets ... anchor.pdf

[geoffgeorges]

Always glad to see these discussions about anchors. I have only been making new routes for a couple of years, but have been replacing rap anchors for like 10 years, as well as doing construction for 30 years.
The rating specs tend to be confusing. In the construction industry they have the "safe working load", the "breaking strength" and other names used. It is interesting to research chain for this. 3/8 chain can say it is rated for 1600 pounds, but its breaking strength is three times that.
All the points above are valid, and I would add that if you are using 1/2" SS wedge bolts you will not need to worry about strength or torque shearing. I know how easy it is to over tighten a 3/8" SS bolt, they shear off surprisingly fast. I have replaced a few rusty 3/8" plated steel bolts around Wa. that have snapped off when given the lightest of turns with a wrench.
So yes, use a torque wrench with 3/8" or M10 bolts.
Also the ASCA and ARI are advocating 5 part sleeve anchors, so they are removable. I still use 3/8 and 1/2" wedge anchors because they cost allot less and since they and the beefy Fixe hangers are SS, I am not too worried about them needing replacement in the next 50-100 years.
Check out Climbtech, maybe too pricy in Canada?

[tobyfk]

The prices however were better than MEC. Triton was $2.25 per bolt plus tax for the Hilti while MEC is $2.70 per bolt (I ordered 50 and split the box)

The Strong Tie ones were $1.60 per bolt plus tax.
I'm okay with paying the extra to have peace of mind, I'm usually the first one falling on them!

I was in Triton today. Salesman said Hilti stainless 3/8" were some insane price like $7 each. I said that was more than double Climb On's price but he was convinced he was correct. Strong Tie were $1.70 each. I bought a small quantity of the Strong Tie as I needed bolts for tomorrow. I'd rather buy Hilti but not at over three times the price per bolt. Has anyone shopped for bolts at Triton recently and been quoted better prices?

[smallman]

While Triton is the place to go for pretty much every other route building supply (chain, quicklinks, brushes, drill bits etc), I buy my bolts at either climb-on or mec.I don't think Triton sells enough SS bolts to get economies of scale or maybe the climbing shops see more routes = more climbers = more business.

[scrubber]

I have spoken to the folks at Triton about the Hilti bolt and drill bit prices. Not only are we not buying the quantities to get a bit of a discount from them, but they aren't buying the mass numbers of those products from Hilti to get the really good prices.

While we may not be able to get a competitive price on those things from them, we should still count ourselves lucky that they sell us quality chain, quick links and the best scrub brushes in the world at less than we'd pay at Home Depot or Canadian Tire. I give them my business whenever I can. They're a local, family run business who bend over backwards to get their clients what they need. You may also notice that the more you go in there and start to know them by name, the lower the prices you pay become...

K