Right Wing - bolts are back
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
I have a car and wanna climb it...Fre wrote:Man, I'm dying to try this route... and just now I burned my car's clutch and have trouble nailing down a date with a partner that has a car or can climb this thing... grrrr
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Tick marks were still there today, despite the rain.
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Jeremy, are you going to remove your tick marks? I'm glad I haven't had the chance to get on it yet...
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Sheesh, the guy cleans the route, drills the bolts, etc. etc. and you're gonna give him the gears about some chalk?Fish Boy wrote:Jeremy, are you going to remove your tick marks? I'm glad I haven't had the chance to get on it yet...
Least you could do is haul up a cordless toothbrush...
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Ha, yeah well....avit wrote:Sheesh, the guy cleans the route, drills the bolts, etc. etc. and you're gonna give him the gears about some chalk?Fish Boy wrote:Jeremy, are you going to remove your tick marks? I'm glad I haven't had the chance to get on it yet...
Least you could do is haul up a cordless toothbrush...
He works the crap out of it, finally decides he can't do it without painting it up, and after he sends it he is done, no need for anymore attention.
Drilling the bolts in half way along the 55m crack pitch is really disappointing too...
Thanks for cleaning it I guess...!
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Optimally-Primed
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:04 am
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Ah, another satisfied customer! You guys are great! Really swell.
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
oh for gawds sake...
If you felt that strongly about it, you should've just cleaned it yourself. But you didn't. So don't b%$ch. And don't use the belay if you don't like it... princess...
If you felt that strongly about it, you should've just cleaned it yourself. But you didn't. So don't b%$ch. And don't use the belay if you don't like it... princess...
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
+1c-plus wrote:oh for gawds sake...
If you felt that strongly about it, you should've just cleaned it yourself. But you didn't. So don't b%$ch. And don't use the belay if you don't like it... princess...
...and more to the point: don't even start to b%$tch until you've cleaned/contributed at least 10% of what Jer has done
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
This and this and sofa king this.al pine wrote:+1c-plus wrote:oh for gawds sake...
If you felt that strongly about it, you should've just cleaned it yourself. But you didn't. So don't b%$ch. And don't use the belay if you don't like it... princess...
...and more to the point: don't even start to b%$tch until you've cleaned/contributed at least 10% of what Jer has done
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Really? One is not allowed to criticize someone else's behaviour at crags around here?
It's great that it has been cleaned, I never said it wasn't. Don't bring red herrings into the argument. I think it is lame to tick routes and lame to bolt half way through a pitch that can be climbed on a single rope length. Saying that a climber doesn't have to clip the bolts is a not an argument. They are there and they reduce the commitment a leader needs. Why ruin the experience for future generations? It's a slippery slope this whole bolting discussion, and picking and choosing to place bolts where it suits us without consideration to what may be possible in the future is rude. We have a finite resource of routes, sanitizing them and not stepping up to the challenge is poor form.
Jer, if you had got this pitch on your first or second shot, would you still have bolted the mid way anchor? If the 1st ascentionist could lead this pitch in one go without the mid way anchor, would you still have bolted it? (I understand there were bolts there early on, was it the first ascent?) You know it was possible for someone who climbs 11's for example to lead it in one pitch, so was the sole reason to bolt half way (or where ever it is) to make it more accessible for leaders who are not as strong? Is that a valid reason in everyone's mind? If it is equally valid for Jer to make the decision (there was mixed opinions and in my opinion no consensus when he posted the question), is it also equally valid for someone to remove them? The route is not just the current generations toy.
I come from an area where a strong ground up trad ethos prevails and these actions are detested. If a climber cannot climb a route as it stands, we don't add bolts, we climb something else. The community polices route modification heavily, and quickly. I understand I am in a different community here, and just want to understand the motivations.
Once again, thank you Jeremy for cleaning the route. I also enjoyed you're article in the CAJ. Anyone who sticks there head out like you will cope flack, as long as you justify it I see no issue.
Nick
It's great that it has been cleaned, I never said it wasn't. Don't bring red herrings into the argument. I think it is lame to tick routes and lame to bolt half way through a pitch that can be climbed on a single rope length. Saying that a climber doesn't have to clip the bolts is a not an argument. They are there and they reduce the commitment a leader needs. Why ruin the experience for future generations? It's a slippery slope this whole bolting discussion, and picking and choosing to place bolts where it suits us without consideration to what may be possible in the future is rude. We have a finite resource of routes, sanitizing them and not stepping up to the challenge is poor form.
Jer, if you had got this pitch on your first or second shot, would you still have bolted the mid way anchor? If the 1st ascentionist could lead this pitch in one go without the mid way anchor, would you still have bolted it? (I understand there were bolts there early on, was it the first ascent?) You know it was possible for someone who climbs 11's for example to lead it in one pitch, so was the sole reason to bolt half way (or where ever it is) to make it more accessible for leaders who are not as strong? Is that a valid reason in everyone's mind? If it is equally valid for Jer to make the decision (there was mixed opinions and in my opinion no consensus when he posted the question), is it also equally valid for someone to remove them? The route is not just the current generations toy.
I come from an area where a strong ground up trad ethos prevails and these actions are detested. If a climber cannot climb a route as it stands, we don't add bolts, we climb something else. The community polices route modification heavily, and quickly. I understand I am in a different community here, and just want to understand the motivations.
Once again, thank you Jeremy for cleaning the route. I also enjoyed you're article in the CAJ. Anyone who sticks there head out like you will cope flack, as long as you justify it I see no issue.
Nick
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Thanks Jeremy for cleaning the route!
Personally, I think the ethics of setting up routes is really subjective.
In this case, Jeremy is setting up this route for the 5.10 audience and what he did is v. reasonable. 5.12+ climbers probably won't complain. Likewise, I'm not gonna question how Chris Sharma bolted his 5.15 climbs either. The Squamish climbing community is v. diverse and has more than 1 ethics. Plus, there are many route-developers setting up routes for a variety of grade and commitment. Also, one can always adjust the commitment level themselves freely. I think Alex Honnold has free-soloed Northern Lights and Freeway. I don't think he has complained about the bolted anchors. Likewise, some locals have free-soloed Diedre, Ultimate Everything, Butt Face, etc. To say that a bolted anchor is a distraction to commitment level is not a valid excuse.
Personally, I think the ethics of setting up routes is really subjective.
In this case, Jeremy is setting up this route for the 5.10 audience and what he did is v. reasonable. 5.12+ climbers probably won't complain. Likewise, I'm not gonna question how Chris Sharma bolted his 5.15 climbs either. The Squamish climbing community is v. diverse and has more than 1 ethics. Plus, there are many route-developers setting up routes for a variety of grade and commitment. Also, one can always adjust the commitment level themselves freely. I think Alex Honnold has free-soloed Northern Lights and Freeway. I don't think he has complained about the bolted anchors. Likewise, some locals have free-soloed Diedre, Ultimate Everything, Butt Face, etc. To say that a bolted anchor is a distraction to commitment level is not a valid excuse.
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NateDoggOG
- Senior Member
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:35 am
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Just to add my 0.02 cents......
For what it's worth, I think that it is the discretion of the route scrubber to place bolts and belays as they see fit.
Ideally, if it is not their original line, they would seek out the permission of the original scrubber/first ascentionist to retrofit it, as I understand Jeremy did with Skywalker (which I still have not been on BTW)
I haven't climbed Right Wing, although I would like to. I don't know how I'll feel when I get to aforementioned bolts; if I feel like puking, I'll use them, if I still feel solid, away I'll go.
Either way, I personally think criticism should wait until after the route has been climbed, instead of going on hearsay around the Squamish Climbing Forum.
Can't decide anything for sure until you do it at least once.
For what it's worth, I think that it is the discretion of the route scrubber to place bolts and belays as they see fit.
Ideally, if it is not their original line, they would seek out the permission of the original scrubber/first ascentionist to retrofit it, as I understand Jeremy did with Skywalker (which I still have not been on BTW)
I haven't climbed Right Wing, although I would like to. I don't know how I'll feel when I get to aforementioned bolts; if I feel like puking, I'll use them, if I still feel solid, away I'll go.
Either way, I personally think criticism should wait until after the route has been climbed, instead of going on hearsay around the Squamish Climbing Forum.
Can't decide anything for sure until you do it at least once.
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NateDoggOG
- Senior Member
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:35 am
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
In addition, as a fairly often-time soloist, I can say that I have never had an issue with bolted anchors, or any bolts for that matter. I keep a quickdraw on my belt loops while soloing as a backup in case I need something to grab onto (haven't had to yetjoewtc wrote: Also, one can always adjust the commitment level themselves freely. I think Alex Honnold has free-soloed Northern Lights and Freeway. I don't think he has complained about the bolted anchors. Likewise, some locals have free-soloed Diedre, Ultimate Everything, Butt Face, etc. To say that a bolted anchor is a distraction to commitment level is not a valid excuse.
) but it's not like I'm clipping them while I climb. More often than not, I am concentrating enough on my climbing that I don't notice any bolts until they are either right in front of my face, or my hand happens to hit it as I move up.Sonnie Trotter states himself in his blog about cleaning the Butt Face that he intended it as a route for the first time 5.9 leader, follower, soloist, etc, and he bolted accordingly. That traverse is protectable, but not easily so if you are getting tunnel vision at that point. Just today, I was talking to a strong, 11+ climber who was saying it's a fairly heady pitch (on solo) so for a .9 leader, those bolts would be quite welcome. I clipped them the first time I led them.
I also ran into Sonnie at the base of the Buttress as he was on his way up to place a couple more bolts along the climb, and I'm sorry, but if he decides it needs a few more bolts, then dammit he can bolt the entire thing as far as I'm concerned.
His climb either way.
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Jeremy didn't do the first ascent, he scrubbed it. If I go and scrub a climb, I certainly don't assume the right to retrobolt it.
As I said before, this is a finite resource and in order to maintain a varied and challenging landscape of climbs, a limit to convenience drilling should be encouraged. There are plenty of safe/well protected climbs at all grades, making sure every other climb maintains this standard is unadventurous and limits the freedoms many climbers enjoy.
I think the big issue here is commitment. Soloing with a draw to clip bolts that you don't intend to clip and having an anchor on a pitch that doesn't need one is reducing the commitment level. You all say wah wah don't clip it, however that doesn't cut it. Adding a bolted belay half way along a pitch ABSOLUTELY reduces the commitment level! Being able to reduce the commitment and intensity is in direct correlation to satisfaction. One must be careful about treading down slippery slopes like this...
Perhaps some perspective would help. Anyone climbed in Thailand? You can dog from bolt to bolt, resting while clipping the next. Where is the satisfaction in that? On the other hand, go to some places in East Germany and throw away your metal climbing gear and chalk and be inspired by the guys sending 14's, worked ground up. Or sending 10's, whatever. How about David Lama and his rap bolting on Cerro Torre? Now that kicked up a stink didn't it. That smart arse thought he could come along with his Red Bull team, drill the route into submission for his own benefit! Thankfully the ethics are enforced out there, and he fixed his mess up after a lot of harassment. It's great to see Matt Maddeloni and friends have put up a route in fine style, bolting on lead with La Coalition. Why did they bother, should have just rapped in and drilled it up. The Bacher Yerian, the classic statement in ground up, no BS climbing at 11c. Famous .14 climbers fall off it and break their backs. That goes for the rest of the routes out at the Meadows. Commitment and satisfaction go hand in hand, otherwise you might as well top rope all your pitches first to make sure you are solid and know what gear to bring. Or just stay in the gym....
It is not true that you cannot critique a style of route or ascent without having done it yourself; I saw many climbers today climbing the same routes in very different styles and commitment levels (not directed at you Nate ). There are objective "better" ways to ascend rocks, and we all know that. I don't care if your style sucks, that's up to you, but if your ethics, the way you treat the environment, the rock and the people around you are in contention, hell yes, I'll comment. Nate, you were making comments about bolting penny lane as a joke today, yes? I'm sure you understand that's unreasonable, so take those feeling and apply them elsewhere.
I understand that each local area's ethics are what makes it unique, and they should be respected, however simply impacting less on the rock and others is more commendable than creating routes that are safe and accessible.
As I said before, this is a finite resource and in order to maintain a varied and challenging landscape of climbs, a limit to convenience drilling should be encouraged. There are plenty of safe/well protected climbs at all grades, making sure every other climb maintains this standard is unadventurous and limits the freedoms many climbers enjoy.
I think the big issue here is commitment. Soloing with a draw to clip bolts that you don't intend to clip and having an anchor on a pitch that doesn't need one is reducing the commitment level. You all say wah wah don't clip it, however that doesn't cut it. Adding a bolted belay half way along a pitch ABSOLUTELY reduces the commitment level! Being able to reduce the commitment and intensity is in direct correlation to satisfaction. One must be careful about treading down slippery slopes like this...
Perhaps some perspective would help. Anyone climbed in Thailand? You can dog from bolt to bolt, resting while clipping the next. Where is the satisfaction in that? On the other hand, go to some places in East Germany and throw away your metal climbing gear and chalk and be inspired by the guys sending 14's, worked ground up. Or sending 10's, whatever. How about David Lama and his rap bolting on Cerro Torre? Now that kicked up a stink didn't it. That smart arse thought he could come along with his Red Bull team, drill the route into submission for his own benefit! Thankfully the ethics are enforced out there, and he fixed his mess up after a lot of harassment. It's great to see Matt Maddeloni and friends have put up a route in fine style, bolting on lead with La Coalition. Why did they bother, should have just rapped in and drilled it up. The Bacher Yerian, the classic statement in ground up, no BS climbing at 11c. Famous .14 climbers fall off it and break their backs. That goes for the rest of the routes out at the Meadows. Commitment and satisfaction go hand in hand, otherwise you might as well top rope all your pitches first to make sure you are solid and know what gear to bring. Or just stay in the gym....
It is not true that you cannot critique a style of route or ascent without having done it yourself; I saw many climbers today climbing the same routes in very different styles and commitment levels (not directed at you Nate
). There are objective "better" ways to ascend rocks, and we all know that. I don't care if your style sucks, that's up to you, but if your ethics, the way you treat the environment, the rock and the people around you are in contention, hell yes, I'll comment. Nate, you were making comments about bolting penny lane as a joke today, yes? I'm sure you understand that's unreasonable, so take those feeling and apply them elsewhere.I understand that each local area's ethics are what makes it unique, and they should be respected, however simply impacting less on the rock and others is more commendable than creating routes that are safe and accessible.
Re: Right Wing - bolts are back
Um...no. We are all climbers, just because he cranks gives him no more right to touch the rock than you or I. The classic bolt wars are generally fought between the leading climbers of the day. The Kauks, Griffiths, Bachers, Robins..etc it has nothing to do with how famous you are. At all.NateDoggOG wrote:joewtc wrote: A he decides it needs a few more bolts, then dammit he can bolt the entire thing as far as I'm concerned.
His climb either way.
His climb? The resource is everyone's and nice guy Sonnie wouldn't arrogantly claim it to be his climb at all, in fact he claims the exact opposite.
No one owns the rock which is why we need to consider others....
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