The Milk Road, a blog

[Optimally-Primed]

If any of you haven't yet noticed, I've become seriously addicted to cleaning over the past year or two. See my article coming out in Squamish Climbing Magazine, Issue 2 (mid-Oct 09) for a synopsis.

For all you folks who like to keep tabs on such antics, I've started a blog to document "my" latest project. I put the word "my" in quotes because a ton of friends are helping out. If you are interested, please be in touch. The more the merrier.

The vision is an 8-pitch 5.10 crack route up Tantalus Wall.

Visit The Milk Road, a Blog for the latest...

[thebigchin]

Your RSS link fails.

[5.4 Slayer]

??? Worked for me.

[Optimally-Primed]

sorry abou that thebigchin. I don't know much about RSS feeding (just hacking my way through iWeb). So I'm not sure what to try...

Expect a posting later today. Pitch 8 is done!

[thebigchin]

Strange that Slayer got it to work but I get a 404 error when clicking on "subscribe". I wasn't able to subscribe through google reader, either. No big deal. I'll just keep checking back. I like what you got going on, tho.

[JSmith]

Where do I even begin...
Jer, I think what you are doing in this area is a debauchery and illegal. One of the biggest threats to climbing in the Stawamus Chief is the chopping of trees. You have clear cut a swath both at the base of Milkrun and at the top of Freeway. You have dumped trees and limbs on the Freeway approach ramp and littered the base of Tantalus wall in general.
Also, you have visibly scarred Mouse In A Bottle, Rock Loggers, Cannibis Wall and the first two pitches of Great White North with the rocks that you've trundled. I can clearly see that you've only begun the cleaning that you plan.
Stop.
You have all ready done enough damage to the area. The last thing we need is another access mess a la Europa. You are putting your personal interest in front of the greater good. Yes it would be nice to have a new moderate route to the top of the wall, but not at the expense of access to the whole crag.
You are currently the biggest threat to access in Squamish with your hi visibility logging.

Sincerely,
J. Smith
Co-Director Squamish Access Society

[J Mace]

I take it you speak for the Squamish Access society then, Is this what the Squamish access society thinks is productive, hurling insults on a message board? Trying to divide the community over petty arguments about tree growth? Europa sure turned out to be popular despite arguments to the contrary and didn’t the access society support that as well as BC parks?

Personally I like what Jeremy has done over the years and I encourage him to continue on!!

Thanks for everything Jer!!!

Its too bad the SAS has chosen to squabble on internet chat boards rather than pursue more productive means of discussion about route/trail building.

I will think twice about my donations in the future.

[Aaron]

You are currently the biggest threat to access in Squamish with your hi visibility logging.

Sincerely,
J. Smith
Co-Director Squamish Access Society

Mr. Smith with all due respect, You're full of sh*t. Not only due you not speak for the SAS but you're speaking in contradiction of the stance that the SAS has taken on this issue.

Taken from Squamish Climbing Strategy Report. 2008. Squamish Access Society
Cleaning (page 5)
At the time of RCS development, the primary concern was to assure ‘minimal removal’ of vegetation and crack in-fi ll. That principle still holds true today, although ‘minimal’ can be an awkwardly subjective term when relating to the recreational value of the emerging climb. The principle has come under stress for two reasons: acceleration of vegetation encroachment that has degraded many pre-existing and potential climbs, and continued demand for new route establishment: long climbs in particular. A vegetation management plan reflecting current realities is needed.

So the current realities is that vegetation removal is essential if a climber wishes to establish anything these days in Squamish. Add to that, the fact that in BC Parks own management plan they've given the thumbs up for vegetation removal at ANY degree tells me that what Jeremy and all other route developers are doing is perfectly legal.

Finally, if fear mongering environmental zealots like you are typical of the SAS I for one will no longer support your society.

Sincerely,
Aaron Kristiansen

[Trick]

Why is the SAS using a public message board to chastise someone. I'm assuming by the formal signature that Mr Smith IS speaking on behalf of the SAS (co-director and all!!). And to be labeled as "the biggest threat" to Squamish access ... that's pretty bad a$% Jer.

Keep up the good work. You're routes are great. I'm pretty sure that the foliage and granite will survive your clear-cutting rampage!!

[JSmith]

I am speaking personally as a climber who is also a director with the SAS. I don't speak on behalf of anyone else but I do stand behind my statements.
The parks and SAS have not adopted a free for all policy. I would like to think that any climber who looks at this area would see that this level of tree removal is excessive and not in line with the SAS or the parks mandates regardless of how subjectively you interpret the wording.

J. Smith

[harihari]

Jeremy--

Point by point, no disrespect intended.

a) Vegetation encroachment has been identified by the SAS itself as a critical issue in Squamish. Any climber who's been up there agrees-- the problem is NOT logging trees; the problem is keeping them from taking over. And Frimer's work-- what I've seen so far up there-- isn't logging; it's cleaning out bushes and dirt and some rocks.

b) The Freeway approach always has crap on it, well, it has the last 2 times I have been up there, well before Jeremy's project. Nobody climbs the approach pitch, and the ramp, big deal, you can sweep the needles and branches away. This is not a reason to bail on project.

c) Rock scarring is temporary-- those big white stains will be gone after a few good rains.

d) Comparing Frimer's project-- in the sun, a clean straight obvious line in a great position, a logical extension to Milk Run, etc-- to the wet chossy mess that is Europa is not productive. Frimer will clean up the junk he dumps down low; the line is better, and he won't be using power tools to rip entire trees out. he also knows from bolting and won't do retarded sh*t like rebarring loose blocks into place.

e) Littering the base of Tantalus Wall-- yea, it's a mess, but so what? Dirt and choss packs down in a few months of winter rain, and ANY route you do ANYWHERE will do this. On my new route we have probably added 2 feet to the level of the base due to crap coming down!

Anyway, your comments I think are a welcome reminder to think about access issues-- perhaps Frimer would go to an SAS meeting and see what the whole crew says-- but your concerns are perhaps somewhat overstated.


chhris

[Tyrone Brett]

Hi,
Tyrone Brett here from the SAS.

Jeremy S. thanks for clarifying to folks that the posting was your own and this issue has not been canvassed by the SAS board (although as you know we have spoken about policy around cleaning). You obviously take deep issue with the cleaning in question, and that is fine: its an example of the issues we face as a community and have to deal with communally. Let's bring it up again at the next board meeting and chat about it in the context of the advisory group.

Jeremy F, unfortunately I didn't get back to you when you contacted me about this. I was hoping the advisory group might be up and running soon and looking at issues like this, but as you know it just had its first meeting. I appreciate the zeal but would like to suggest holding off on this so that things can be worked out. You and I have been in touch about this and let's keep up that dialogue.

We all know we have to deal with route cleaning. I know I sound like some new age guru asking for a love-in, but let's give the advisory group a chance to get up and running and see where it leads us. If not in that forum than we need to figure out how to all get along in the short term in a way which best serves the community.
cheers
Tyrone
SAS

[Optimally-Primed]

My reticence on this forum, in response to Jeremy Smith's comments, has been on purpose. I feel that it would be best if I did not voice my views publicly on this matter. That said, I have been in private dialog with Jeremy Smith, Kevin McLane, and Tyrone Brett on this matter. I hope that some sort of improvement is forthcoming.

In Tyrone's post, he alluded to me contacting him. To clarify: I approach SAS months ago, asking for advice about how to proceed with the concept of The Milk Road project. I did not receive a response.

Tyrone also alluded to an "advisory group". This was assembled by SAS, with the mission of addressing both systematically and in more specific situations, issues that are important to Squamish climbing and access (e.g., route cleaning, falcon closures, anchors). I should also note that both Jeremy Smith and I sit on that committee. The committee has met once; I was in attendance but Mr. Smith was not.

My interest is in what's best for the community. The intent of this project is to make a contribution to that end. The SAS is now asking me to hold off work. I am openly considering their suggestion, but have asked for clarification on the request.

Given that the SAS has made this request public, I will make my request for clarification to SAS equally public. SAS has yet to respond to me.

1. Who does this moratorium affect? Just me? Or does it affect all route cleaning? Jeremy Smith and Andrew Boyd are working on a new roof pitch on freeway. In their cleaning process, they knocked down stone, which decimated at least one tree at the base and left much debris. (Ironically, this is the same area that most of the debris that I dropped landed.) Are Andrew and Jeremy S. also asked to stop work, along with all other cleaning in Squamish?

2. What is the time line on this? For how long am I asked to hold off? I suggested to Kevin that we do a 4-month deal: I stop for 4 months, and the committee agree to meet within that time frame to discuss this specific matter. That would give me just enough time in the late winter/early spring to complete the project before the weather improves and the crowds return.

[JSmith]

When Andrew Boyd and I were planning to clean the route you mentioned, we took several steps leading up to it. This included notifying the climbing community online on forums, and notifying the campground host in person (the liaison to the park board, effectively). We cordoned off the trails leading to the bottom of the route with caution tape and clear signage, and chose a time to clean when there was least likely to be anyone around anyway (at night). The one tree that was unintentionally taken out in the cleaning was at the base, and a regrettable accident, not a purposeful act. There was no other vegetation removal. Comparing this to taking a chainsaw to the crag and cutting down many substantial trees (including at the base, not on the route itself) is misleading, at best. Your route could have, and could be developed with a less aggressive strategy that would still serve climbers and the greater good.
J.Smith

[Dave Brayden]

Jeremy S, making inflammatory statements on a public board is not fitting for the director of the Squamish Access Society. When you post your position in your signature you imply that you have the support of the SAS ... which I highly doubt is true in this case.

Dave Brayden