Clean Corner

[Lurch]

Awhile ago on the spring cleaning thread there was some discussion about putting a bolt on the start of Clean Corner. Some people commented "No bolts on Clean Corner please" and Another matt had this to say:

I don't usually do not voice an opinion on these matters but lately I feel I might. First off, to all those you who contribute to the development of new routes and the maintenance of old ones, thank you for your time, money and efforts. This sport has exploded in popularity and we need people to continue to put in the hours to help match the number of climbs to crowds. That being said, with the growing numbers of new climbers has come a change in attitude, especially around the acceptance of risk. I know I'm not the first person to bring this up, but it concerns me when I hear comments like "we need to tweak a few of these old climbs", and considerations of a bolt on clean corner. Let's not lose respect for these 'old climbs' and let's definitely not change history. I hope climbs can be left as they were developed, in the nature and style of those who developed them. These climbs may not be for everyone, you may not like or agree with the amount of risk or the fall factor potential, but please do not take away that history or the experience for those who still seek that adventure. As I said, I really do appreciate the efforts of all those who give there time, and I am reluctant to comment when someone with the best of intentions contributes to the community, but I do comment so that all voices are heard.

To which Bruce replied

Another Matt, I appreciate both your effort to explain your opinion and your concern for maintaining historical context of our routes and would like to add that I am of the same mind. If anyone is interpreting my words otherwise i'd like to say that too much is being read into it. History is a big deal to me and honoring our pioneers should be a value we maintain. Iconic routes in particular should be preserved in their original state as much as possible. Snake and Merci Me are good examples of how to this day few can wrestle with them without considering the historical context of the first ascent.

I would caution against entrenching such value in dogma however. Getting back to Clean Corner and Tantalus Wall, I'd like to state that both routes are iconic to our history and preserving the representative nature of the climbing should be high on the list. I'd like to point out that historically it appears that a deciduous tree existed at the base of the crack for many years, which offered slung protection and something to monkey up. This has since died and is effectively no more. In other words, the current state of unprotected hard groveling 20 feet above the belay has no historical validity.

Even if it did, is such a situation justified? On Merci Me if you blow it before the first clip you'll mangle your legs on the ledge but you won't factor 2 onto the belay, and the climbing is positive edges not barndoor groveling up some chossy rounded wide thing. Ugly, ledge bouncing, high force falls twenty feet off the belay are nothing to scoff at and I suggest that a reason to justify it had better be a bloody good one. In both cases I suspect a very few might grumble at the sight of a little bit of stainless steel but they'll sure as hell clip it and then quickly forget all about it as they deal with the remaining 40 odd meters of full on old school climbing where they can think about the historical context to their hearts content.

I'd like to point out that squamish has a history of retro bolting on iconic routes already, largely for significant safety concerns. El Indio, Horrors of Ivan, and a handful of Pet Wall routes routes come to mind. Each situation is unique and shouldn't be constrained by rigid dogma in determining the right course of action. I would be among the first to suggest that the decision to do so should come after much thought and consultation, which this forum is in a perfect position to serve.

I for one feel this would be better served if opinion served up in cryptic four word sentences was accompanied by a paragraph or two of justification.

I for one am all for keeping routes in their original condition. I wasn't allways of this opinion but with a bit of experience I learned to enjoy the runout. In this case though it sounds like the route has changed from it's original condition as a result of natural causes, so I think it deserves a little discussion.

[psi4ce]

I have a friend, he's a very strong climber. I'd say my friend climbs 5.11+ trad no problem, probably harder. He said he once climbed Clean Corner (a couple of years ago) and it was anything but a 5.8 cakewalk. I remember him talking about "mandatory moves up sketchy turf", "sapling pro", and it being a "grovel fest".

Add the possibility of a factor 2 onto the belay?

Yee-haw

[Optimally-Primed]

First off, I really hope that all the work I've done for climbers in Squamish hasn't made me infamous. What did I do to deserve that?

Second, a tidbit from the past. The late, great Guy Edwards once called Clean Corner the "realest 5.8 in Squamish"... or something like that.

[psi4ce]

I really hope that all the work I've done for climbers in Squamish hasn't made me infamous

Many people mistakenly say "infamous" when they really, actually, only mean "famous".

Or perhaps he really means "occasionally embattled"?

[Optimally-Primed]

Who am I to say...

But it is Frimer, not Frimmer. And it is Dr., not Mr. Not that I care. Call me Jeremy.

[jipstyle]

Who am I to say...

But it is Frimer, not Frimmer. And it is Dr., not Mr. Not that I care. Call me Jeremy.

If you weren't infamous before ...

[gnarnaphobe]

What commitment level do Bearbreeder routes have?!?

I think you should have a few routes of your own before you start jibbing other peoples routing ethics.

Just my two sence

[jipstyle]

Just my two sence

I'd call that good sense.

[gnarnaphobe]

perhaps one day well see more bolts on banana peel ... in fact id bet on it the next few decades

Not cool.

This forum has drifted off topic... Back to clean corner, who did the FA? Is the situation similar to the YPLS in which a tree that once offered protection is now deceased. I'm all for maintaining heritage of routes, but if protection that once existed is no longer, I dont see the problem with an extra bolt.