Revisiting suggested grades - Forgotten Wall

[MCpl]

Hey all,
the Forgotten Wall has been up for awhile now and lots of people have had a chance to climb the routes. I just wanted to know what people think of the grades. Are they accurate? I know that the suggested grades that are currently used in the latest guidebook were given in haste because of the guidebooks release date. This is what I think should be more accurate... what do you think?


From Beneath You It Devours - 5.12a
The Reach Around - 5.12a
Got Pull - 5.11c
Creepy Crawlers - 5.10d
Trunk Monkey - 5.11d
The Voodoo That You Do - 5.10b/c
Boiler Room - 5.12c
Rug Munchers - 5.11b
Forgotten Realm - 5.9

[bradley3297]

i havent climbed alot there but forgotten realm is listed as 10a and its def not. easiest 10a ever. feels easy even for a 5.9. so id say 5.9 for that one is more accurate

[5.4 Slayer]

Uh, for me Trunk Monkey was a full on 12a,

and Rug Munchers? Personally I'd upgrade it before I downgraded it.
At least 11d, seems as hard to me as most 12a's I get on.

The others are about right.

[Charlie]

Who are you, David Graham? Going around and down grading everything you get on?

For the most part, I think the grades for Got Pull, and Rug Munchers are good as is. Rug Munchers may or may not be harder than 11d.

But that is just me adding in my two cents. Andrew Itkonen should weigh in, he has climbed them all.

[MCpl]

Charlie let remind you that the grades that made the guidebook did not have the consensus of many people. It may have also been influenced by a phenomenon call "group-think." Either way, they should not be the end-all-and-be-all for how hard that people ought to think they are. So, I'm not downgrading them, I would even upgrade something if it warranted it... I'm only offering what I think is more realistic after having ample opportunity to have climbed the routes and also compare them to established routes with confirmed grades. After which the author can put in subsequent editions grades that are closer to what the route really is.

[bike]

Aren't you forgetting "Just Can't Do It" 13a !?

[MCpl]

For that one I am tempted to suggest 12d... but I haven't done it yet so we'll have to see.

[Brendan]

the Forgotten Wall SUCKS as it is... so who gives a sh*t what they grade those lame a$% piled together routes

[Brendan]

lol

[5.4 Slayer]

Oh yeah, I've never had an easy time on Creepy Crawlers either. I vote 11a.

[Charlie]

Got Pull - 5.12a
Creepy Crawlers - 5.11a
The Voodoo That You Do - 5.10b/c
Rug Munchers - 5.11d/12a
Creeping Right - 5.10d (Too horrible to be an 11a)
Filth Infatuated - 5.11c/d

If Rug Munchers and Got Pull are down graded then I think it is time to revisit the grades for Neutered Bovine and Mutation.

And Marty, you are right, grades are very subjective. I am sure at 6'1" I am going to find routes completely different than someone who is 5'nothing". It's the way it is, always has been, and always will be. Subjective grades are what makes this sport as interesting as it is.

[Peter]

From Beneath You It Devours - 5.12a (?)
The Reach Around - 5.12a (12a)
Got Pull - 5.11c (11d)
Creepy Crawlers - 5.10d (10d)
Trunk Monkey - 5.11d (12a)
The Voodoo That You Do - 5.10b/c (10c)
Boiler Room - 5.12c (12c)
Rug Munchers - 5.11b (11d)
Forgotten Realm - 5.9 (?)

I'd add:
Low Impact (10a)
Mikes Link 2 (11d)

[brockt]

Can you really tell the difference between an 11c and an 11d, or an 11d and a 12a, ect. I sure as hell can't. I agree that grades are completely subjective. I could tell you how hard I think something is for me from 1 to 10. 1 being I could do it in my street shoes, 10 being at the limit of my physical ability (perceived exertion rating) but I would never be able to stick a precise grade on something that someone else wouldn't complain about. I don't know where I'm going with this...oh yeah, just stick a grade on it an who cares. It'll feel different for everyone anyhow.

[itsonlyadream]

Can you really tell the difference between an 11c and an 11d, or an 11d and a 12a, ect. I sure as hell can't. I agree that grades are completely subjective. I could tell you how hard I think something is for me from 1 to 10. 1 being I could do it in my street shoes, 10 being at the limit of my physical ability (perceived exertion rating) but I would never be able to stick a precise grade on something that someone else wouldn't complain about. I don't know where I'm going with this...oh yeah, just stick a grade on it an who cares. It'll feel different for everyone anyhow.

Yes, I am very good at telling the difference between an 11c and an 11d, or an 11d and a 12a.

The difficulty of climbs usually has many variables like steepness, size of holds, distance between holds, type of rock, type of features, presence and relevance of chalk marks, not to get into whether danger is part of difficulty.

However, people are amazingly good at making this type of judgement. Not perfect, just very good. And some people are better at it than others. Consensus may elude us but don't think that because people disagree then difficulty ratings can't be useful.

Just don't trust them 100%.

Before doing a climb the difference between 11c and 11d and between 11d and 12a is very important to me but even more important is knowing the person who rated it.
After doing a climb the rating is much much less important and I may do a bad job of telling the next poor schmuck what it is. But I try.

Also, the difference between 11c and 11d is much greater than the difference between 11d and 12a, on average.

[brockt]

I mean two grades in general, not just 11c/d and 11d/12a. Perhaps you could outline the objective method you use to identify these grades and how it is grades are consistent for who is climbing it. A reachy 12b for me may feel like a 11d for someone a foot taller. There is really no standard that can be used to grade a route. It is completely subjective to the person grading it.