Funny "Euro" Practice

[Pete L.]

Friend came back from a trip to France and Spain recently. While there he saw some guys climb up to the second, third and even higher bolts (clipping them as they went) and then down climb to the ground without hanging on the rope.
He asked what was up.
Answer: After, as an example, clipping the first four bolts and then down climbing to the ground, any subsequent attempts on the route can be done with the rope pre-clipped into the first four bolts.
Is this cool?
At the end of the day I don't really care what anyone else does as this is a personal sport. We live with our own actions but...just curious. Would you do it?

[Clive kessler]

was this to keep the onsight?

[Pete L.]

Onsight or redpoint. Works for both.
So, an onsight could last for days or weeks.

[mcgarnickle]

It's those damn scorecard fluffers! At least some of us have the decency to actually climb what we put on 8a in the style we claim. I've met people even here at our local areas that I have caught in their own bs claims on 8a. And seriously, I immediately lose respect for anyone who does that, as well as this wack stuff to claim onsights for the sake of scorecards.

[XXXX]

when yuji hirayama onsighted sphinx crack, he climbed the 11b section to the bolt at the roof, clipped it, downclimbed to the ground, rested (still tied in) then climbed the route. are you saying yuji is a scorecard fluffer?

[Peter]

If you rest on the ground it doesn't count. O/S, redpoint, whatever.....

[Clive kessler]

It is still a legitimate onsight, flash or redpoint. Why won't it be. Its not like you gain advantage on the unknown part of the route.

[Pete L.]

It is a personal thing but I for one wouldn't feel cool with it.
Once I clip the first bolt I won't down climb to the ground.
However, is this any different from downclimbing to a bomber rest mid-route?
I guess the big differance would be that it's hard to drive home for a few days of rest from the bomber rest at mid-height.

[mcgarnickle]

keeping in mind the following statement:

"I don't, nor should you, care in anyway if someone flashs or onsights a route if there definition of a flash or an onsight differ from your own. I have the luxury of climbing for me, not anyone else."

That being said, if I climb up a route and then come down to the ground to rest I do not count it as a flash, onsight, for myself.

Not so true Gary. It is like saying "taking en passant" or "castling" can be done all sorts of ways based on what your personal definitions of those things are. In chess those terms (as are the terms onsight and redpoint in climbing) are clearly defined. No we do not have such stringent rules nor need to follow them as in chess, but especially for the purposes of keeping a record of what was done, you have to observe those definitions.

[mcgarnickle]

when yuji hirayama onsighted sphinx crack, he climbed the 11b section to the bolt at the roof, clipped it, downclimbed to the ground, rested (still tied in) then climbed the route. are you saying yuji is a scorecard fluffer?

Yuji did not record an ascent of Sphinx crack on his 8a.nu scorecard. As an OS or redpoint or flash. So no, I do not consider him a scorecard fluffer.

[Pete L.]

Climbing is nothing like chess.
There are way too many gray areas.
Such as:
- Clipping one anchor or both?
- Extending tough clips or anchors?
- Is pink pointing dead? For a true onsight of "Pulse" (example) does someone have to climb it first in order to remove the fixed draws?
- I've seen a friend rodeo clip the 5th bolt on a route while standing on a ledge. Still a send?
- Knee bars?
I'm sure there's more.

I'm glad there's so many gray areas. Gives us something to talk about while sitting around the camp fire.

[mcgarnickle]

If I understand you correctly. You are saying there is a clear cut definition for Redpointing, Onsighting, and Flashing. I hope thats what you're saying because it will be very fun to respond to that post. So go a head, have a shot at it. Keep in mind your comments above...

but especially for the purposes of keeping a record of what was done, you have to observe those definitions.

These definitioned should be easy to apply to everyone for record keeping purposes so they have to be reasonable.

Ok, as far as I've always known, there are definitions for those terms just as for any others, else why would they exist? Do you actually need me to tell you what redpoint means? Or onsight? Or are you just trying to be a devil's advocate for the sake of discussion? But especially for the sake of 8a, you have to abide by their definitions if you are going to use the silly scorecard and spray about it later! Or even not spray, whateva...

And no definition of redpoint which I've ever heard bothers to take into account any of those things you mentioned, like guide book descriptions, route maps, people yelling beta, photos, etc. Just as it does not take into account the weather, your breakfast or some chicks on the route next to you.

Those words are definited, and its pretty simple, not really gray at all until you start adding a ton of stuff which has nothing at all to do with it.