Renaming a route after you clean it.

[Aaron]

So I’ve been following the progress of the cleaning of Crap Crags. All I can say is WOW! My amazement at the Herculean effort that has been put into the project, is second only by the amount of money that’s been spent on it. $10,000!!?? Can you believe that?? Any way, I’m curious about the decision of the route cleaners to change the name of “Crap Crags” to “Europa”. I was recently speaking to Hamish Munch the original first accentionist of Crap Crags and he was curious him self about why they insist of changing the name his route. The cleaners insist they’re actually working a new line but, come on. If you develop a “new” line that bobs and weaves its way around an existing line, have you actually climbed something new? If you go and climb 3 feet to the left and then 5 feet to the right up any one pitch of a route like “Angels Crest” or the “North North Arête” have you climbed a new route or have you just climbed the same route in a different way? I don’t write this to belittle the efforts of those who are cleaning “Crap Crags” because their efforts thus far are nothing to belittle. I only question their decision to not honor those who came before them.
What say you?

Aaron Kristiansen

[Brendan]

Aaron... interesting view, and i'm sure it's shared by many. i too am partial to what you're saying about honoring what came first. and Angels Crest is a good example of climbing a few feet to the right or left of any given pitch and not mentioning it to anybody. i've done quite a few routes where i've veered off to one side for some moves and came back 'on-route'. i would never mention it cause who gives a sh*t. i don't need recognition or mention in a guide book.

furthermore, the efforts of those responsible for cleaning up Crap Crags is definitely noteworthy, but, i am against re-naming the route unless there has been significant new climbing ground established which has never before been climbed. if there's a variation, then link all the hardest pitches and give it a 'variation' name.

b.

[Cloudraker]

Fellas,

Apparently Europa crosses the 'line' of Crap Crags several times but is an entirely new route.

http://www.squamishclimbing.com/squamis ... 78&start=0

[Brendan]

Fellas,

Apparently Europa crosses the 'line' of Crap Crags several times but is an entirely new route.

http://www.squamishclimbing.com/squamis ... 78&start=0

well there ya go then. i've never actually researched anything into Europa/ Crap Crags.
time is precious, and that ^^ just seems like a waste.

[Jeff Mottershead]

With regards to a the name, I was originally intending to just leave it as Crap Crags, despite most of the pitches going on different, parallel lines. A number of people told me I should give the new route a new name. What finally tipped it for me were a couple of points made by Kevin McLane, although they would be just as valid from anyone else. There are a number of potentially classic routes out there that don't see much traffic because the name suggests that it isn't worth the traffic. "Smell of Fat Chicks" is a good example. Second, the project has very much been in the public eye for a while, and a good name for it does make it seem better in people's minds, and this is needed. I need help and I desperately need money, and having a name that doesn't inspire certainly doesn't help this.

What I do deeply regret, though, is not talking to Hamish and Dick about it first. Recently I've had a lot of email traffic with Hamish, who was originally not pleased with the turn of events. I've got a great deal of respect for him, and I felt pretty bad about this.

Fortunately, though, after explaining the differences between the Crap Crags line and the Europa line, and what exactly we were doing up there, he came around. Below is the last correspondence I have recieved from Hamish:

***

during the month or more that we have been emailing, i have come around to your view of things. i support your project, and acknowledge your right to re-name it as you see fit. [but still think that shaman would have been cool. people would always wonder who the shaman was!] anyway i am now a converted europa man. hope your ankle is better, and that the project is finally finished and climbed in its new state. congratulations to you and all your workers etc etc

cheers Hamish

[Anders Ourom]

Route renaming has always struck me as a debatable practice. Perhaps for routes that have only had one or a few ascents, a long time ago, and have fallen into obscurity. Otherwise, why bother? It seems at base a territorial thing, almost like putting in a claim post.

It seems particularly strange if someone purports to rename a route, without seeking a community consensus, and at least asking those who made the first ascent what they think.

Most renaming never catches on. The best example being the confusing attempt to rename two pitches (of 12) on University Wall as the Shadow. Not to mention attempts to rename Mt. Logan (Mt. "Trudeau"), Saint Petersburg (Leningrad), and on and on.

One of the very few exceptions that seems tolerable is the renaming of the east face of Washington Column in Yosemite as Astroman - if done free. It's still the east face of the Column to many.

None of this necessarily applies to the route being excavated in the Crap Crags. I hope it really is a separate line, deserving its own name, but haven't seen the details. There are a series of corners in the area, so the two routes must at least be parallel. Crap Crags provides a fine moderate outing, with lots of adventurous climbing to the top of the Chief. It also has some unique tree climbing and anchors - cedar trees are a precious thing. I'm always saddened when people remove cedars.

I don't know whether the 'new' route is worth the effort - it's right in the middle of the peregrine falcon nesting closure area, and so will never be climbable before mid-July. It's also a fairly damp dark area, essentially some corners that catch a lot of runoff. Which means that it will be slow to dry, and hard to climb once it starts raining as usual in September.

Climbers 'cleaning' of routes at Squamish is currently governed by a Rock Climbing Strategy, under B.C. Parks' Master Plan for the park. It's more or less an honour system at this point, but a project of this kind could cause this to be revisited. Such behaviours are more limited in many other climbing areas, if not prohibited.

[Axel]

"There are a number of potentially classic routes out there that don't see much traffic because the name suggests that it isn't worth the traffic."

McLanes stupid black dot system probably has more to do with it than the names. I don't know if he still does that. Haven't bought one of his guidebooks in awhile.

[jred]

$10,000! I would love to see the bill. What is being included in these costs, labour, gas for driving from Vancouver, lunch money etc.? Why so bloody expensive?

[itsonlyadream]

So I’ve been following the progress of the cleaning of Crap Crags. All I can say is WOW! My amazement at the Herculean effort that has been put into the project, is second only by the amount of money that’s been spent on it. $10,000!!?? Can you believe that?? Any way, I’m curious about the decision of the route cleaners to change the name of “Crap Crags” to “Europa”. I was recently speaking to Hamish Munch the original first accentionist of Crap Crags and he was curious him self about why they insist of changing the name his route. The cleaners insist they’re actually working a new line but, come on. If you develop a “new” line that bobs and weaves its way around an existing line, have you actually climbed something new? If you go and climb 3 feet to the left and then 5 feet to the right up any one pitch of a route like “Angels Crest” or the “North North Arête” have you climbed a new route or have you just climbed the same route in a different way? I don’t write this to belittle the efforts of those who are cleaning “Crap Crags” because their efforts thus far are nothing to belittle. I only question their decision to not honor those who came before them.
What say you?

Aaron Kristiansen

We made a quick stop in the Chief parking lot on the way to the Bluffs yesterday. Europa begins to look like a line to me rather than just a battlefield. I agree that there isn't much to say besides WOW! because the scale of the effort beggars criticism. Perhaps Winston Churchill "...we will fight them in the hills, we shall never surrender." Or Albert Einstein "...World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

However, as far as the old name goes, a reminder of it remains as a streak of a certain colour.

[Dru]

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that in a rant about "honouring the pioneers", Aaron manages to misspell Hamish Mutch as Hamish "Munch"? Maybe start that respect with getting his name right.

[Aaron]

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that in a rant about "honouring the pioneers", Aaron manages to misspell Hamish Mutch as Hamish "Munch"? Maybe start that respect with getting his name right.

Hamish will only gain my respect after he pays back the money he owes me.

[Aaron]

$10,000! I would love to see the bill. What is being included in these costs, labour, gas for driving from Vancouver, lunch money etc.? Why so bloody expensive?

No idea were the money's going, but this is the money's that's been spent.

Varsity Outdoors Club--$2000
Jeff Mottershead (VOC)--$2000
Mountain Equipment Co-Op--$2000
Alpine Club of Canada, Vancouver Chapter--$500
Scott Nelson and Sandra Nicol (VOC)--$300
Christian Veenstra (VOC)--$100
Piotr Forysinski (VOC)--$100
Peter and Silke Gumplinger (BCMC)--$100
Matthew Carroll (VOC)--$100
Neil Beattie--$100
Bob Woodhouse (BCMC)--$80
Margaret Hanson (BCMC)--$60
Brian Wood (BCMC)--$60
Steve Mullen (VOC)--$50
Rob Brusse (ACC)--$35
Joanna Kolakowska (VOC)--$20
Bruce Cassels (BCMC)--$20
Urszula Paleczek (VOC)-$20
Other BCMC members--$300
Other VOC members--$24
Squamish Mountain Festival participants--$70
Raphael Tsen and Cathy Choiniki--$10
Climb-On customers--$40
Donations can also be given at Climb-On in Squamish.

If you wish to donate to the project by mail, please send a cheque to:

Jeff Mottershead
1990 W 6th Ave
#307
Vancouver, BC
V6J 4V4


Jeff Mottershead has spent about $6000 more than he has received on the project. He intends to contribute the $2000 listed above. The remaining $4000 is currently out of a loan, eating interest. Financial aid is needed and appreciated.

[jred]

$10,000! I would love to see the bill. What is being included in these costs, labour, gas for driving from Vancouver, lunch money etc.? Why so bloody expensive?

No idea were the money's going, but this is the money's that's been spent.

Varsity Outdoors Club--$2000
Jeff Mottershead (VOC)--$2000
Mountain Equipment Co-Op--$2000
Alpine Club of Canada, Vancouver Chapter--$500
Scott Nelson and Sandra Nicol (VOC)--$300
Christian Veenstra (VOC)--$100
Piotr Forysinski (VOC)--$100
Peter and Silke Gumplinger (BCMC)--$100
Matthew Carroll (VOC)--$100
Neil Beattie--$100
Bob Woodhouse (BCMC)--$80
Margaret Hanson (BCMC)--$60
Brian Wood (BCMC)--$60
Steve Mullen (VOC)--$50
Rob Brusse (ACC)--$35
Joanna Kolakowska (VOC)--$20
Bruce Cassels (BCMC)--$20
Urszula Paleczek (VOC)-$20
Other BCMC members--$300
Other VOC members--$24
Squamish Mountain Festival participants--$70
Raphael Tsen and Cathy Choiniki--$10
Climb-On customers--$40
Donations can also be given at Climb-On in Squamish.

If you wish to donate to the project by mail, please send a cheque to:

Jeff Mottershead
1990 W 6th Ave
#307
Vancouver, BC
V6J 4V4


Jeff Mottershead has spent about $6000 more than he has received on the project. He intends to contribute the $2000 listed above. The remaining $4000 is currently out of a loan, eating interest. Financial aid is needed and appreciated.

Yeah, thanks but I was interested in where the money is going. Are people being paid to clean? I have a hard time believing that any route could cost that much. With over ten grand you could fix that route with static line multiple times, buy one hundred wire brushes, a few chainsaws, several wrecking bars, come-a-longs, many gri-gris and ascenders, rain gear, chain anchors, a Hilti hammer drill, etc, etc....... All these items could be purchased and still leave extra cash. Did the developers not have any gear at the start of this project? What the hell is going on here?

[slhughes]

ten grand!
i heard there was going to be some student at the base with a car salesmen's sheep skin on, shouting, europa! europa! get 'er while she's clean folks. ladies and gents you may 'ave heard that this is a crap route. but those days are over, that wos when climbing was a dangerous adventure. not now, ladies. oh no. for a small fee you can climb this lurvely new route in tip top shape. not twenty dollars, not fifteen dollars. i'm losing a latte a day for this folks- TEN DOLLARS. that's right this a limited offer only available until next year when the route will once again by green as old envy. sir, you sir the gent in the red helmet, leave those hexes at home sir, because this route comes with an exact gear list and a cast iron promise that should it rain, then you are assured of a plum rappel escape. that's not all though folks, if you'd like take a brochure and feel free to browse all our extra services, including our 'lookin awesome on pitch 9 photo offer' and of course, the special 'key to the sherry cabinet on the roomy pitch six belay'.
tossers.

[Aaron]

Yeah, thanks but I was interested in where the money is going. Are people being paid to clean? I have a hard time believing that any route could cost that much. With over ten grand you could fix that route with static line multiple times, buy one hundred wire brushes, a few chainsaws, several wrecking bars, come-a-longs, many gri-gris and ascenders, rain gear, chain anchors, a Hilti hammer drill, etc, etc....... All these items could be purchased and still leave extra cash. Did the developers not have any gear at the start of this project? What the hell is going on here?

I havn't found a shoping list, but I have found a few photos of theri efforts on line.

I'm sure this air compressor cost a few bucks.




As did that brand new rope


No Idea what you call this thing but it looks expensive. They weren't giving those coveralls away either.