Cougar around Fern Hill - Crumpit Woods

[dakine]

I think we should ban trad climbers from sport areas and sport climbers from trad areas. Let's not even talk about bouldering...

Oh and the ppl that smoke really piss me off too (pot smokers as well).

Also ppl that bring Kids to the crag should be banned too as kids attract cougars and let's face it they are noisy.

I agree that owners that let their dogs crap in climbing areas and don't clean up should be reprimanded for it.

if we ban enough ppl and what they can do and not do we'll be successful in killing the sport or in the very least make it very hard to enjoy it.

I don't agree with the close mindedness of banning... we have enough restrictions in our lives on what, when and how we do things without governing our cragging...

[Fre]

all right, first of all, sorry Steve J, I took some cheap personal shots at you and that was uncool and not nice. And stupid since one should not offend strangers (with guns)
Also, I didn't want to intensify the hate against dogs, their owners, children, and any other groups, that's not productive
Great info smallman, it seems that the problem is complex yet temporarily and a start to a solution between group A (humans, their pets, kids, and other sh*t) and group B (cougars) can be the reduction of problematic interaction between the two in specific places.
For a limited amount of time, just close the access to the Bluffs and other areas where cougars have been sited (another restriction i know, but face it dakine, if there were no restrictions, i would be taking a number 2 in your backyard right now, and you would shoot me no doubt). I know thousands of Vancouverites, eager to try their newly bought, over the top, super professional mec-gear, will be pissed off but perhaps they could take this occasion to explore different areas. Coming from Belgium, Canada has limitless outdoor areas available within a day or weekendtrip from Van, so suck it up and go there. I know the new developments are still in (temp.) cougar area, but they are there, no need to whine about it coz it's not gonna change anything.
Nobody gets shot, everybody happy

[mcgarnickle]

all right, first of all, sorry Steve J, I took some cheap personal shots at you and that was uncool and not nice.

Don't worry, I don't get offended that easily.

Coming from Belgium,

Belgium eh? I figured Germany for sure, after you suggested picking up poop from all around squamish and eating it.

Just kidding, I love cougars, I even saw one on TV once.

[dakine]

No worries Fre I'd only shoot you if you throw it at me once you finished

personally i agree with you that the areas where there is a high amount of cougar activity now should be closed Until the cougars move on (since the food would be gone).

[pinner]

Restricting access to the Bluffs does not seem like a plausible idea - it is a park designed with far more than just climbers in mind. 5th Ave didn't close despite a biiiig black bear and her cubs hanging around for weeks. I take my dog Ted (70 lbs ish lab-shepherd) with me most everywhere I go, but haven't gone for a ride in Crumpit Woods or near Alice Lake for weeks now, and have been mostly climbing longer routes and leaving him at home while the cats are around - he's had a couple days out up at Murrin only.

I understand that someone coming up from Van to hike the Chief may be unaware of local wildlife issues, just as last weekend when I took Ted to bike on the Sunshine Coast I was unaware if they had any such issues currently. We all take risks both knowingly and unknowingly in all facets of our lives, and we can try to mitigate them as best we can through educating ourselves, especially in our own backyards.

Awww man, Ted just sh*t in his dog crate...

[Anders Ourom]

There's occasional discussion of cougars on the SuperTopo forum, as many western US climbing areas have similar geography to Squamish. Although they call them "mountain lions".

There's a fascinating book on why over the last few decades, cougar-human interactions had become more common in western North America. The book is called The Beast in the Garden. It's somewhat Colorado-centred, but still relevant. The essential thesis:
1. White people arrive in western North America, 1850 - 1900.
2. They aggessively hunt, poison, and trap native predators - bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes.
3. They also hunt deer, elk, moose etc - predator prey.
4. Predator populations plummet, especially near urban areas and roads.
5. Humans drastically alter the environment - clearcuts (deer heaven), subdivisions and suburbs with lots of green stuff (deer heaven), lots of interspersed homes, parks and wild areas.
6. Deer population explosion. (Main cougar food.)
7. Humans (1970s onward) stop hunting as much, and predators start to not be seen as vermin, and sometimes as charismatic. Some are even protected, at least to some extent.
8. Predator populations explode.
9. Lots of predators in fringe areas, interacting with humans, often to the disadvantage of the former.

Ecological determinism.

As for "non-locals", please define. The Squamish climbing community extends from Chilliwack to Whistler to Nanaimo to Bellingham, with some farther afield. For all its proud roots, Squamish is for practical purposes a suburb of Vancouver - distinct, but still part of the big smoke. (Looking at it another way, Vancouver is a southern suburb of Squamish...) The highway project, and ongoing development, will only advance that.

Until quite recently, few climbers were born, raised, and lived in Squamish. Paul Kindree may have been the first, and then Jack Fieldhouse, although Joe Turley was probably the first climber who actually lived in Squamish - and perhaps the only one until sometime in the 1970s. Local pride is fine, but it seems somewhat parochial to suggest that someone must live in Squamish to be part of the Squamish climbing community, particularly given that most climbers who live there are recent immigrants. It's also amusing when the suggestion is made by climbers who've only recently moved to Squamish but who work in Vancouver proper, or who are only temporarily resident in Squamish.

Is Glenn Woodsworth, who was very active at Squamish throughout the 1960s, who wrote the first Squamish guide, and who continues to have an active interest in climbing at Squamish, not part of our community - just because he happens to live in Vancouver? How about me? Am I excluded? I even lived in Squamish from 1987 - 90; does that count?

It's important that climbers work together, and that in part means being inclusive.

[giladros]

We were at the Chief's parking lot on Saturday morning, about to embark on a two day cycling trip, when we heard some weird noises: bells and something being dragged. It turns out that a cougar had killed a dog the day before, and had attacked but apparently not killed a dog that same day. A "conservation officer" (=hunter?) was sent in to kill the cougar, and he delivered. The bells came from the four or so dogs that assisted. The cougar was a juvenile, about the size of a medium-large dog and grayer than I had expected.

I spoke to the conservation officer for a bit. He said that not all cougars that are reported are killed, some are relocated. The head of the park (or some title like that) was there and said that the cougar was possibly sick, making it desperate, but I don't think he had any evidence for this.

Is killing (=an execution?) really the best outcome here? How about trying to decrease the interaction, as was suggested? Perhaps closing off some areas for short periods of time. Presumably if a cougar can be shot dead, it can be shot with a tranquilizer. How about a second chance (relocation?), or jail for life (the zoo?). Killing is obviously the easiest solution for those involved (except the cougar), but likely the worst solution for the cougar.

[smallman]

Relocation rarely works for "problem" bears and cougars. Both bears and cougars are territorial and relocating them just drops the offending animal in the territory of another animal. The offending animal is just pushed out of the territory by the existing dominant animal. Bears and cougars also have amazing spatial navigation skills and it does not take them long to arrive back in their old territory. Also problem animals are habituated to the easy food humans are providing them. It is like if you found a twenty $ bill on the ground in the same place for several days, would you go back to the same spot? I would!!

The cougar killed at the cheif was emaciated (about 2/3 by weight of a normal cougar it's age). It had taken dogs off the leash. The trail was CLOSED that morning due to this cougar (it attacked 3 dogs in 3 days). The people whose dog was attacked Saturday ignored the closure sign. Unfortunately, the closure did not work and given the state of health of the cougar it likely would not have survive tranquilization and relocation.

[pinner]

Hey all, info from SORCA:



Good evening,

Town Hall Meeting Tonight

June 17, 2009 8:00 p.m.

Regarding Cougar Activity in Squamish

Where: Municipal Hall, Council Chambers, 37955 Second Avenue

The Ministry of Environment Conservation Officer Service is holding a
Town Hall Meeting tonight regarding the recent Cougar activity in
Squamish.

Last night's cougar attack has heightened the concern for safety
within the community and tonight is a chance for the community to
voice their concerns and to hear from the Conservation Officer
Service. Tonight's discussion will address the increase in cougar
sightings and activity, the concerns within the community and how to
keep our community safe.

There will be an opportunity for a question and answer period.

If you cannot make the meeting, watch it live on <

http://www.squamish.ca/
> www.squamish.ca
<http://sorca.ca/announce/admin/FCKedito ... quamish.ca>
(under watch council meetings live).

Contact: Meg Toom 604.815.5066

Thank you,

SORCA Executive.

[tobyfk]

Yosemite bans the presence of dogs in their park and it has been very successful. As have many other parks because of dog wild animal conflict and the fact that a good number of dog owners are just simply tools.

Amen to this. I have climbed and travelled all over the world and never come across anywhere as over-populated with dogs as Squamish. Unbelievable. Why the canine fixation?

[Dooley]

Yosemite bans the presence of dogs in their park and it has been very successful. As have many other parks because of dog wild animal conflict and the fact that a good number of dog owners are just simply tools.

Amen to this. I have climbed and travelled all over the world and never come across anywhere as over-populated with dogs as Squamish. Unbelievable. Why the canine fixation?

Unfortunately the few tools ruin it for the rest of us that are responsible dog owners. My dog is a part of my family and in my eyes is my child. I am not having children, decided on a dog. I personally dont like kids. I think they are an equal problem at a crag/bouldering area. Most parents think that they can let their kids do what they want when they get to the area because they dont need to keep them on a leash. Dogs are a part of society in Canada, if you dont like it then go climb somehwhere that bans them.

Now to find an area that bans kids?

[pinner]

Amen to this. I have climbed and travelled all over the world and never come across anywhere as over-populated with dogs as Squamish. Unbelievable. Why the canine fixation?

Squamish as a town does definitely have a huge dog population. Got my first dog after living here for a year, and notice when we are in other towns the seeming lack of dogs after Squamish. Dunno why...

[pinnbasher]

If all dog owners were responsible and just cleaned up after there pets it wouldn't be so bad.

[crazymonkey]

I'm so with Dooley...lets ban the screaming rugrats. Unless your kid is there to climb and can do so without that horribly squeaky whiny sound most children make, leave them in the car. Bring the dog instead.
Oh, and guys, leave the whiny girlfriends behind too. The ones who can't carry their own packs and freak out that they, like, get that icky chalk stuff under their like, $90 manicure! OMG, ew!!!

bah hahaha!

[Glenn]

I seem to recall there was an incident about 10 yrs ago with Glenn Payan and David Woodsworth climbing at Octopus Garden where one of them reached the top of the crag and found a juvenile cougar sitting next to the bolts and watching him?

Close but not quite Dru. For the record. Yes I saw a cougar, yes it was 10 years ago. It was at the top of GMB, not Octopus's. Not sure that I know David Woodsworth but certainly I've never climbed with him in my life. Don't think he was around with this sighting. I wasn't climbing at that time, but rather hiking around on a routine check-up of my anchors. I came and around the trail at the top of GMB and it was there, staring me down. Didn't look juvenile to me, but rather large..but that could have to do with the state of my brain at the time.
And contrary to Kevin's post I did not report the sighting. Sounds like someone did though. LIkely a good thing before someone was hurt.