bolt failure
bolt failure
see:
http://www.onsight.com.au/news-blog/art ... t-happened
http://www.onsight.com.au/news-blog/art ... -follow-up
and some discussion at UKC:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=340148
scary. is there a bolt police in squamish that would stop this from happening here?
http://www.onsight.com.au/news-blog/art ... t-happened
http://www.onsight.com.au/news-blog/art ... -follow-up
and some discussion at UKC:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=340148
scary. is there a bolt police in squamish that would stop this from happening here?
This issue is unlikely to happen in Squamish for a number of reasons.
The main one being the different rock types involved, but there are other reasons as well.
A good reason to check these things out in the guide (who FAed the route?), keep your eyes on these things. Apparently the belayer and leader had some discussion on the sorry state of the bolts prior to the accident.
Just cause it's bolted doesn't mean that it is safe....
Anyhow, I see this as something to know about, read about and learn from, but more like the chances of a draw unclipping, this really only happens rarely. That said, I keep a locker draw around to prevent critical draws from unclipping...
Climb safe, bolt well.
Paul
The main one being the different rock types involved, but there are other reasons as well.
A good reason to check these things out in the guide (who FAed the route?), keep your eyes on these things. Apparently the belayer and leader had some discussion on the sorry state of the bolts prior to the accident.
Just cause it's bolted doesn't mean that it is safe....
Anyhow, I see this as something to know about, read about and learn from, but more like the chances of a draw unclipping, this really only happens rarely. That said, I keep a locker draw around to prevent critical draws from unclipping...
Climb safe, bolt well.
Paul
Discussions of knowing a route's history to determine/speculate on the safety of its gear unfortunately lead to discussions of preparedness in general in this instance, as the climbers were unknowingly off-route, on a new line that was not in the guide. The FAers reportedly did not communicate well/clearly with locals, and have only a basic command of English. The route was presented on their home website, in a language virtually no climbers who will attempt the route can speak. Presumably only a handful of locals owuld know of the route's existence. While the affected climbing party stated they did not bring a topo and knew little detail of the route description, other than this new route there was only one line on the face.
condolences
I don't know if you guys know Andrew (the belayer in the tragic accident), I've talked to him briefly at VOC gatherings, and I know he climbs a lot at Squamish. My condolences to him.
http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/02/03/ ... r-dies.htm
http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/02/03/ ... r-dies.htm
Awww, dude did you have to???Brendan wrote:lol. Yea, his bolting jobs are just barley adequateDru wrote:If there were "bolt police" at Squamish they'd probably have arrested Barley long ago and there would be hundreds fewer routes.
Besides there are some of his bolts that have been removed in past for various reasons...
Paul
Dru wrote:
If there were "bolt police" at Squamish they'd probably have arrested Barley long ago and there would be hundreds fewer routes.
Barley bashing seems to have become sport even in tragic posts. If you can do it better show me don't disrespect serious posts ! How sad that you have to use misfortune to rant. My condolences and apologizes to Nick Kaczorowski’s family and friends, our community as a whole is more compassionate and mature than the views expressed here. Rolf
If there were "bolt police" at Squamish they'd probably have arrested Barley long ago and there would be hundreds fewer routes.
Barley bashing seems to have become sport even in tragic posts. If you can do it better show me don't disrespect serious posts ! How sad that you have to use misfortune to rant. My condolences and apologizes to Nick Kaczorowski’s family and friends, our community as a whole is more compassionate and mature than the views expressed here. Rolf
Re Bolting Fund
FYI
If you find manky bolts or hangers on a route in Squamish just come in to Climb On and we'll give you bolts and hangers to replace them. Doubly true of anchours. This for replacing bolts that already exist not for retro bolting existing free routes that are just plain old scary.
Dan
If you find manky bolts or hangers on a route in Squamish just come in to Climb On and we'll give you bolts and hangers to replace them. Doubly true of anchours. This for replacing bolts that already exist not for retro bolting existing free routes that are just plain old scary.
Dan
Last one dead's a sissy
Maybe I should clarify what I meant a bit so it's easier to understand.
Robin has put up probably well over a thousand routes, including many excellent routes. But on some routes he has used substandard bolt and boltlike anchors. I am specifically referring to:
- drilled and chiselled "keyhole" micronut placements in blank rock;
- bolt hangers consisting of two hardware store, 1/4" or 3/8" stainless chain links held on the bolt with six or seven washers;
- belay/rap stations consisting of two such chain anchors equalized to a single leaver biner with the gate taped shut, in such a way that none of the chain links can be clipped, only the single old and battered biner;
- belay/rap anchors consisting of a chain wrapped around the short stump of a cut-down tree. In a surprisingly quick time the stump rots and the whole anchor can be removed with a vigourous tug.
These anchors can or could be found on Habrich, at Copper Cove, the Malemute and places in the Smoke Bluffs and were primarily placed in the mid- to late 90s.
I do not believe these anchors meet what could broadly be described as "community standards" for anchor quality at Squamish. I have replaced approximately a dozen of these anchors using my own drill and hardware where I felt the route quality justified an upgrade, and other climbers have also replaced a number of these anchors - but there are others I am aware of that have not yet been replaced.
I climbed with Robin on two occasions and on the second occasion asked him about his choice of anchor materials. I won't attempt to repeat his arguments now in the length he presented them to me but I do remember that he said he used the chipped keyhole nut slots where the rock was often wet and or/salty (ie at Copper Cove on the right side of the right crag) and he felt a regular stainless bolt would rust. He also felt, if I remember correctly that titanium bolts such as the Fixe ones made for seacliff bolting were too expensive. I think he justified the chain hanger use for a similar reason, ie he was putting up a lot of routes and felt that by skimping or using cheaper equipment for some hangers, he could afford to put up more routes.
I'm not going to claim some ethical podium here. I myself have used older 3/8" SMC hangers on a few routes because a retiring climber gave me a deal on a box of unused ones. I have bought and used hardware store stainless steel chain for rap station chain anchors because it was cheaper than Fixe chains. But the anchors used by Robin that I have detailed above are below my minimum standards for anchors, which is why I've replaced them with better ones where I can. And hence my quip in the original post that if there were "bolt police" in Squamish who were responsible for enforcing quality standards in anchor placement, Robin would probably have run afoul of them.
Robin has put up probably well over a thousand routes, including many excellent routes. But on some routes he has used substandard bolt and boltlike anchors. I am specifically referring to:
- drilled and chiselled "keyhole" micronut placements in blank rock;
- bolt hangers consisting of two hardware store, 1/4" or 3/8" stainless chain links held on the bolt with six or seven washers;
- belay/rap stations consisting of two such chain anchors equalized to a single leaver biner with the gate taped shut, in such a way that none of the chain links can be clipped, only the single old and battered biner;
- belay/rap anchors consisting of a chain wrapped around the short stump of a cut-down tree. In a surprisingly quick time the stump rots and the whole anchor can be removed with a vigourous tug.
These anchors can or could be found on Habrich, at Copper Cove, the Malemute and places in the Smoke Bluffs and were primarily placed in the mid- to late 90s.
I do not believe these anchors meet what could broadly be described as "community standards" for anchor quality at Squamish. I have replaced approximately a dozen of these anchors using my own drill and hardware where I felt the route quality justified an upgrade, and other climbers have also replaced a number of these anchors - but there are others I am aware of that have not yet been replaced.
I climbed with Robin on two occasions and on the second occasion asked him about his choice of anchor materials. I won't attempt to repeat his arguments now in the length he presented them to me but I do remember that he said he used the chipped keyhole nut slots where the rock was often wet and or/salty (ie at Copper Cove on the right side of the right crag) and he felt a regular stainless bolt would rust. He also felt, if I remember correctly that titanium bolts such as the Fixe ones made for seacliff bolting were too expensive. I think he justified the chain hanger use for a similar reason, ie he was putting up a lot of routes and felt that by skimping or using cheaper equipment for some hangers, he could afford to put up more routes.
I'm not going to claim some ethical podium here. I myself have used older 3/8" SMC hangers on a few routes because a retiring climber gave me a deal on a box of unused ones. I have bought and used hardware store stainless steel chain for rap station chain anchors because it was cheaper than Fixe chains. But the anchors used by Robin that I have detailed above are below my minimum standards for anchors, which is why I've replaced them with better ones where I can. And hence my quip in the original post that if there were "bolt police" in Squamish who were responsible for enforcing quality standards in anchor placement, Robin would probably have run afoul of them.
I think Dru has a valid point. I have been quite disgusted with some of the anchor systems I have come across here is Squamish, and elsewhere for that matter. What is truly missing from all of this, is not a dedicated police force, but a commumity standard everyone can buy into and respect.
Being cheap is not a valid excuse for poor-workmanship. I don't want to have to rely on "Wal-Mart" quality anchors. I want top of the line anchors so I can get home at night after a great day on the rock. As such, I have been contributing the best I can to improving anchors, I hope ohters will do the same.
If you cannot afford to purchase adequate materials to put up a route, then don't; let someone else have it who has the cash, or save up your coffee money until you do.
Being cheap is not a valid excuse for poor-workmanship. I don't want to have to rely on "Wal-Mart" quality anchors. I want top of the line anchors so I can get home at night after a great day on the rock. As such, I have been contributing the best I can to improving anchors, I hope ohters will do the same.
If you cannot afford to purchase adequate materials to put up a route, then don't; let someone else have it who has the cash, or save up your coffee money until you do.
-
Optimally-Primed
- Senior Member
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:04 am
Bolting police? What kind of nonsense is that? I neither agree that there should be on nor think that one would be able to do what it is intended to do.
Ok, let's talk reality. If you don't like Robin Barley's anchors, then you are free to replace or upgrade them. Rather than spray, why not go do something about it? Robin is a free man, and one who is contributing to Squamish climbing in the way that is consistent with his read on the situation. Ranting on websites hardly constitutes contribution.
And yes, I have replaced/upgraded one of Robin's anchors. It was the one atop the first pitch of the Great Game. Here are my suggestions about how to do it:
- take off the nuts and chains, leaving the two bolts.
- if the top bolt isn't in the right spot for a nice Fixe anchor, chop the top bolt (only if necessary)
- put a new bolt in (if necessary) directly above the chopped bolt, right where those shiny new Fixe rap stations would want you to
- put on one of those shiny new Fixe rap stations...
This technique requires just a Fixe chain anchor (about $15) and one bolt ($3)... and has the benefit of covering the chopped bolt with chain, minimizing the ugliness of chopped holes without having to get into the whole epoxy-grit business.
Enjoy clipping into that anchor
Ok, let's talk reality. If you don't like Robin Barley's anchors, then you are free to replace or upgrade them. Rather than spray, why not go do something about it? Robin is a free man, and one who is contributing to Squamish climbing in the way that is consistent with his read on the situation. Ranting on websites hardly constitutes contribution.
And yes, I have replaced/upgraded one of Robin's anchors. It was the one atop the first pitch of the Great Game. Here are my suggestions about how to do it:
- take off the nuts and chains, leaving the two bolts.
- if the top bolt isn't in the right spot for a nice Fixe anchor, chop the top bolt (only if necessary)
- put a new bolt in (if necessary) directly above the chopped bolt, right where those shiny new Fixe rap stations would want you to
- put on one of those shiny new Fixe rap stations...
This technique requires just a Fixe chain anchor (about $15) and one bolt ($3)... and has the benefit of covering the chopped bolt with chain, minimizing the ugliness of chopped holes without having to get into the whole epoxy-grit business.
Enjoy clipping into that anchor
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