Fixed line for Broadway descent?

[avit]

If the 4th class is that big of a deal on Broadway north the best option may be to do 4 single rope rappels up to 30m ... it's probably faster than hiking across.

Interesting, have you done it?

[slopr]

Yup, usually if i do Snake or anything north of that. You just walk to the base of Karen's Math and the gully that leads up to Memorial ledge then scramble(Hip belay maybe first time) down to the left (lookers left not skiers left) near a gravelly crack which is to the left of the top of Calculus and there is a set of Chains, the first rap is short -about 15 M to a good ledge with a tree on it and the Second is exactly 30 M to a good forested ledge where you walk down to a tree with nice chains on it and do another 25 M rap to a hanging stn then 1 more 25 M rap to the ground, walk down the rock on trail - great success, minimal walking down slabs.

[crazymonkey]

I agree with slopr...I've rapped off that way several times. I've never encountered another party rapping at the same time, it's quicker, and much easier than taking Broadway. And no slabby sketchy bits, which suck in the dark and rain.

[Dru]

I topped out on Snake once and was walking across the easy slabs to the base of Dessert Dyke in my sandals. It was spring and there was a huge wet streak to cross. Took it too casually and my foot slipped halfway across and I was off on a ride.

After sliding down about 30m I was just going over the Voodoo Amour roof and my feet and lower legs were actually over the edge when I managed to grab a little gnarled tree growing out of the crack and self-arrest. My partner threw me a rope and belayed me up.

So even though I'm one of those few bumblies who has managed to fall off the Apron descent, I don't think a fixed rope should be added either where I bailed or anywhere else. A simple hip belay across the wet slab would have been fine... and I've done that once or twice since in similar conditions.

[Anders Ourom]

I'm glad that Drew's experience ended as it did - scary stuff. It does highlight an underlying issue, which is that if you consider the Apron as a whole, including all approaches and descents, there is a great deal of "class 3" ground that is usually done unroped. (Strictly speaking, class 3 to low class 5, but perhaps omitting the 'slab' descent.) Much of it is somewhat exposed. The descent along Broadway may be the highest-traffic such area, but others aren't far behind, e.g. the area at the top of the north Apron, where routes from Calculus Crack - Snake finish. Should every one of these places have fixed ropes or other aids?

Not to mention the many approaches and descents elsewhere at Squamish that involve some scrambling, sometimes exposed. The most famous being Bellygood Ledge. It's not difficult to undercling across, even with a pack, but is somewhat exposed. In the unlikely event that someone who can climb any of the Grand Wall routes is uncomfortable with the exposure, or it starts raining, it's always possible to crawl on one's belly along the ledge. Hence the name.

Anyway, here are the promised photos of the rope on Broadway. The first picture is looking up along the rope.

It was slack, and more or less followed the route, and so would have been of little use, especially on the traverse.

Here is the tree (shrub) it was tied to at the south end, 3 - 5 metres above the big ledge.

It appeared that the shrub could be pulled out with one's bare hands and a bit of effort.

The tree to which the upper end of the rope was tied.

There is a much stronger cedar about a metre higher. None of the trees was padded or slung - rope abrasion would probably kill them quickly.

And the actual reason I was there, the Baldwin Ledge and Plaque.



A lovely spot to sit and think at sunset! The poem is by Walt Whitman - "To Those Who've Fail'd" (http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl- ... othose.htm)

[eresc79]

In my original support to the fixed rope I assumed that it was safe. However, based on your description and the pictures you posted, it is now clear that the fixed rope was not safe, and produced more problems than solutions to the safety of the descent.

Thank you for removing it!

[bradley3297]

jesus.... who tied that to a sapling. jesus. somebody needs to use their brain.

[Anders Ourom]

Hopefully there can now be a reasoned discussion of this and related matters, involving all points of view. My view is that such changes in the climbing environment at Squamish need to be debated before they're made, as they often have significant and sometimes unanticipated consequences. Not something that any one person or group, however well-intentioned, should decide, and not something where you just talk with your posse and then proceed. "Lowest common denominator" decisions are often poor quality.

slopr said You just walk to the base of Karen's Math and the gully that leads up to Memorial ledge then scramble (hip belay maybe first time) down to the left (lookers left not skiers left) near a gravelly crack which is to the left of the top of Calculus and there is a set of chains, the first rap is short -about 15 m to a good ledge with a tree on it and the second is exactly 30 m to a good forested ledge where you walk down to a tree with nice chains on it and do another 25 m rap to a hanging stn then 1 more 25 m rap to the ground, walk down the rock on trail - great success, minimal walking down slabs.

This doesn't sound like a descent to take inexperienced climbers on, given that there is a hanging station. I have recently seen several parties belaying parts of the Broadway descent, and one group rappelling the last bit into the forest. Very sensible behaviour, taking hardly any time or effort.

Hopefully the owner(s) of the ropes that I removed will reclaim them - I promise anonymity. If they're not reclaimed, I'll put them in the rope recycling box at MEC.

[narfster]

I was reading this thread with great interest as I did the my first apron descent in the dark (with only one headlamp for my partner and me) after having a very late start after work on "Rock On" a while back. It was a quite intense experience and most of it was outstandingly exciting for the adventurous aspect of it. Even being unfamiliar with the terrain at the time it was totally safe (just reading the guide book and asking local friends for input on how to get off the apron beforehand).
This should be common sense anyway! If you can climb a multipitch route you have to be sure you are able to get off the climb in the end of the day. You have to be aware of the fact that you are responsible for you and your partner and you need to be able to navigate through whatever situation you might encounter on the way up and down.
My girl friend who is completely new to multipitch climbs with alpine descents was perfectly fine doing that scramble after having climbed "Deidre". It really all boils down to risk assessment according to your comfort level. If you feel you need to be roped up and belayed then do so. If you want to place pro on that way down to make you feel safe then that is the way to go.
Safety in climbing is mainly knowing what you are comfortable with and capable of in combination with all the information on the route and descent you can get your hands on (guidebooks, friends, blogs, ...). In the end of the day you want to make sure that you make it safe and sound to the pub for a cool beer. In my view adding fixed lines is not making climbing safer in any way. If they are well installed they might make some areas more conveniently accessible. If this is what the consensus is then lets put the lines back in - but this time properly.
Bottom line, I really think that using your brain and assessing your situation is an asset needed for safe climbing and hence I think no fixed lines are needed on the apron.

[Marty]

I'm just going to play devil's advocate to what I've been hearing so far.

Please note I've only been climbing for a year on weekends, haven't gotten into trad climbing yet, and have never been on the Broadway ledge...

What other reasons could there be to having a more secure route up/down the Broadway ledge?

What about rescue operations? From what I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the Broadway ledge provides great access to tons of climbs on the apron. If there were an emergency on the apron where someone needed immediate assistance, I would think the Broadway ledge could be a great access route for rescue crews. If a rescue crew needed to get up there in a hurry (and I mean running up there), without putting themselves in unnecessary danger, I'm sure they would love to have a fixed cable through tricky sections that they could quickly clip to in order to provide them some safety as they ran through these tricky sections.

I'm thinking of something like a metal cable connected to a few secure bolts (as I saw at Southpark (?) in Check Canyon). It wouldn't be something you would want to hold onto, but it would stop you from tumbling down the entire apron. Those who don't fear the route don't have to use it, and those more nervous can clip a locking biner to it.

Squamish is an extremely popular climbing area, and it's only going to get busier and busier over the years. Some of you have pointed out that the Broadway ledge can be sketchy under certain circumstances, and one of these days someone could make a bad call and seriously hurt themselves. Is one little metal cable on a descent really going to ruin things?

Again, I've never been on this ledge, so I don't really understand how sketchy it really is. I've been out on the Bellygood ledge and was DAMN glad there were a few bolts. And quite frankly, are those bolts really that bad? Do they ruin the experience? Sure, you could probably head out there without them, but I like my life...

[slopr]

It sounds like for many people here that climbing is an activity they participate in because it challenges the mind and puts you in situations where you must calculate and accept risks. When faced with a climbing challenge - eg. "should we rope up for this 4th class section? or scramble? or belay?" That is dealing with the risk accordingly by making decisions based on experience, skill level, and intuition. When somebody makes a decision to remove the risk it effectively removes the reason that many of us might be there in the first place - for a little bit of adventure, self reliance, and an opportunity to make decisions that are more interesting and important than if you should mow the lawn or wash your subaru today. When somebody makes a decision for everybody else based on their own personal comfort level it is selfish and has a lasting effect which future generations will deal with, Broadway ledge has been used by climbers this way for decades so why do we feel the need to change it so it is safer? Is it because of all the advances in equipment, climbing shoes, camming devices, ropes,camelpaks, etc.. that make it harder for us humans now than it was for the original pioneers who were up there with nothing but hemp ropes, boots, pitons and their wits? This is ROCKCLIMBING not mountain biking, we don't need to dumb it down. Yes, Squamish will be busier in the coming years and the more cables and fixed lines and Trail signs we add will safely remove any adventure opportunities which are still left, it is probably inevitable but we should do our part to preserve the adventure as long as possible. Taking responsibility for your own actions and thinking of the results they may have is a privilege we should cherish as climbers not abuse.

[jjparker0250]

Hi folks, I'm the one who placed the fixed line.

First off, I'd like to apologize to anyone whom I had offended or taken an "experience" away from, or just feels like there is a piece of trash on the ledges. I also didn't mean to upset any politics within the climbing community, especially as I am not a local climber.

I had heard several parties making the traverse comment on how sketchy it was, and seen several newbies freezing halfway across the traverse sketchily trying to climb back so they could rope up. After having a couple of my ropes trashed by rockfall a few weeks earlier, I thought I may as well install them across the ledge. I soloed up Vector on my rest day, and upon reaching the top realized I didn't have quite enough rope to install the lines (thus why the top end is anchored to a slightly shittier tree).

I completely agree that the sapling is a bad anchour, but decided it would hold at least body weight for the short term, as no other natural anchour is there.

My intention was that if the line was still there the next time I was in Squamish, I would bring up a 10.5, 60m rope and install it across the whole traverse, and discreetly drill a bolt behind the bushes where the sapling is.

The reason I installed the line so slack was that I didn't want anyone to try using it as a "handline" for the traverse, rather just to provide a clip-in point to provide some extra security. Yes, the sapling will break in the event of a fall, but the rope is then anchoured to a solid tree further down. If the sapling were to break while "handlining" it down to the top of diedre, you'd just land on the ledge. It would kind of suck, but it's not life-threatening.

Here are the reasons I think the line should stay;
- If reinstalled for the long-term, it would provide security to everyone, regardless of ability.
- The large majority of climbers on the Apron are beginner to intermediate.
- Will help reduce the polishing of the rock
- Why the hell not?

When it comes to aesthetics, give me a break. You're climbing one of the most trafficked areas in Canada with the constant sound of semi-trucks engine breaking down the hills with a lovely view of the logging yard where our forests are ending up.

When it comes down to it, if the community decides it's an eyesore, then please remove it. As well, if anyone notices damage to either the ropes or the trees, please also remove it, as the last thing we want is some poor unknowing person trusting something of questionable integrity.

[Sunday]

Wow, this should be a letter to the editor of Gripped, or Climbing magazine.

[Anders Ourom]

Thank you for taking the time to join this discussion. It may be a bit limited - not everyone reads this forum, or is interested in what is said here - but it is one way to debate important issues. We climbers tend to be a bit action-oriented, which isn't always the best option - discussion before action is often desirable.

You may be interested in the discussion we're having about Slab Alley, at http://www.squamishclimbing.com/squamis ... 22&start=0 Again, appreciating the limitations of the medium, it seems to be helping. I've heard from several others about ideas for Slab Alley, both in person and by e-mail/telephone, which also helps. Have a look also at the debate about fixed anchors on Penny Lane on the Gripped forum, at
http://gripped.com/forum/?wpforumaction ... &t=14426.0 IMHO climbers who are considering significant alterations of existing routes (including approaches and descents) should first tell the world, especially likely critics. It tends to lead to better decisions.

The season is winding down, sadly, and so what I suggest is that discussion of this issue continue until the spring. At this point, a few more months - mostly without climbers - shouldn't make any difference, and seems likely to improve the quality of whatever is decided. The questions (all mentioned previously) seem to include:
1. Is there a true community consensus that some sort of fixed anchors or lines are both needed there, and desirable? That is, a consensus involving all those with an interest? Sub-questions:
a) In the context of climbing at Squamish as a whole, particularly approaches and descents, does it make sense?
b) In the context of the history of climbing at Squamish, and that area, does it make sense?
c) Apppearances aside, is there a real safety issue, and can it be solved in some simpler way? (A simple solution might well be a fixed anchor, so that those wishing can rappel to the Diedre tree bay. Not much effort or investment, few likely to disagree, and climbers could still be belayed if appropriate.)
d) What about education?
e) Climbing always involve some risk and inconvenience. Where is the balance found in this case, in the broader context?
2. If some permanent anchors/lines/whatever are deemed appropriate and desirable, what exactly should they be? Anything that truly makes this section 'safer' for unroped climbers may involve substantial effort and expense.
3. And maybe other issues and perspectives, e.g. the likelihood that any action without sound public debate is likely to meet strong opposition.

Don't forget the law of unintended consequences. The addition of bolt belays to Diedre may have increased rather than reduced risk, by luring climbers onto it who are unprepared, and may overall have made it a less "convenient" experience - not that climbing is a very convenient thing in the first place!

So more debate here may help. You could also try the Gripped forum, or maybe Cascade Climbers. The "Squamish Access Society" is oriented toward local issues, and may have some useful thoughts. The Access Society (CASBC) perhaps for broader perspectives. You could ask climbing guides, although commercial climbers don't necessarily have the same interests as the climbing community as a whole. There's no one group or body that speaks for all those who climb at Squamish, so be very inclusive. You could even do stuff like on-line surveys, although providing enough background information to get useful responses can be a challenge.

Whatever you do, I strongly urge you not to replace the lines there, or add any anchors, without a healthy public discussion of the issues first. I'd be happy to help with that as I can. I personally don't believe that anything more than perhaps a rappel anchor is appropriate or necessary there, and am very unsure as to what could reasonably be done that would actually make that particular bit (one of many similar at Squamish) safer, but certainly believe it is a subject worth discussing.

ps Please let me know what you want me to do with your rope-ends. I'll be away for two weeks from September 18th.

[Cloudraker]

Personally, I think having a fixed line on Broadway is another step toward sanitizing the Squamish climbing experience. Perhaps this is inevitable as climbing and climbing in Squamish become increasingly popular. Every generation laments about how it was back in the day, whether it was more adventurous, bolder, more badass, etc. But as jj stated above, the din of highway traffic, sirens, and logging trucks speaks volumes about what the apron has become: an urban crag with 5-15 minute access. In my opinion, if adventure is what you seek you don't climb on the apron. So in concert with the bridge over to the Malamute and the efforts related to trail work and signage over the last few years, why not install a proper fixed line on Broadway? This would be consistent with what has been happening in Squamish lately - encouraging accessibility.